walterbk - 02:30pm May 3, 1997 EST (#177 of 195)

Marko P.

Once again you avoid discussing the 1941 published agenda of the Serbian Chetnik movement that outlines the systematic ethnic cleansing of non-Serbs from conquered territories as central doctrin from the reference I provided in the book The Chetnik Movement of Draza Mihailovich (Belgrade, 1979).

Instead you rant on about how I could have afforded to have the book translated. The fact is - I could afford it and I did have the entire book translated as I have done with many others in my collection. Why don't you stop avoiding the subject matter.

You seem to be more interested in insulting me by calling me a "Nazi-lover" than seriously discussing anything. I resent your slander. My uncles were both prisoners and died in Dachau. I have no fondness for Nazis nor for anyone who sympathizes with their dogma.

But, what I also resent, is predators like yourself who prey on peoples' fears and stereotypes. That is the same tactic that the Nasiz used in the 1930s to gain power - by blaming and villifying Jews for all of their economic and other ills. In this same way, you are villifying and blaming everyone who does not agree with you for current Serbian war crimes committed agains non-Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia.

Let me repeat what I have posted earlier - SOMEONE WHO FEELS LIKE THEY ARE A VICTIM DOES NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME A VICTIMIZER IN TURN.

I abhore Ustashe actions during WWII, and acknowledge that Serbs suffered terribly under their regime. BUT...it does not give Serbs the right TODAY to slaughter civilians without impunity - this is the point you cannot seem to accept.

Walter Baker

StSava - 03:27pm May 3, 1997 EST (#178 of 195)

Ah Walter, But, SOMEONE WHO FEELS THEY ARE A VICTIM does have a right to justice. that justice has been denied over and over again in the past 55 years. Serbs have been betrayed by international laws, laws that you now demand that the Serbs obey! The Serbs were even denied the written history of their victimology.

The war criminals like Dinko Sakic, who headed the Jasenovac Death Camp has returned from exile to Croatia where he is the security advisor to Franjo Tudjman, he even bragged on Croatian television that he had done his job better in 1942 we would not have the problem with the Serbs today. In other words this Bastard wanted to kill all 7 million of us in 1942 like the Germans with the help of the Croats and Muslims managed to kill 6 million Jews.

Yes we do have a right to become the Victimizer when these Nazi Bastards returned with their checkerboard flag and the Kuna currency under which hundreds of thousands were slaughtered. Under such circumstances the Serbs had the right to declare war on Croatia! These Nazis destroyed 97 Serbian churches in 1991 just as easily as they destroyed 500 Serbian churches in 1941 while people like you managed to remain silent. Using such hideous pretext as ÒSerbs started it they deserve it,Ó mentality. North Vietnam started it too and we spent billions of tax dollars and 12 years and we lost the war along with 50,000 of our sons and daughters. The North Vietnamese made it so painful to our politicians that we put our tail between our legs and ran, but I am now to believe that there is a Òmoral principleÓ in Bosnia with these Serbs...what crap! Those Serbs had every opportunity to kill UN troops and didn't every UN troop killed in this war was killed by Croats and Muslims, these same Croats even managed to get away with destroying 65 UN posts in Croatia in August 1995 and used UN troops as human shields and you challenge the morals of the Serbs!

Serbs had every right to defend themselves, they proved that ÒNever AgainÓ means something. There are more than 40,000 dead Serbs in this war, 7,000 of whom are children, did they commit suicide? Why are the crimes against these Serbs discounted as though we deserved it? Why are there only 2 Muslims indicted for crimes against the Serbs and only 1 Croat when there are 72 Serbs indicted? Why is the leader of the Serb army and the Serb president indicted while Tudjman and Izetbegovic who gave orders to their troops and who murdered in the name of their flag escaping justice?

I don't place much weight in this book that you had translated and I am not about to waste this valuable space to argue against it, it gives you too much power when weighed against the 1.7 million Serbs who lost their lives in this period according to Nuremberg documents. They obviously had enemies! Enemies whom you now seem to support.

There were 20,000 Hanjar SS Muslim troops in Bosnia in WWII, not a single one was indicted for their hideous crimes against humanity, they guarded the railway links between the Balkans and Auschwitz how appalling that you want to re burn the Serbian victims and dance on their graves for this book as though they deserved their tortured deaths. If you practice this kind of dreadful historical revisionism then I suggest that Serbs should eternally despise Germans for the crimes of the Waffen SS, too and for inspiring the third war in the Balkans in this century! I am sure glad that you and individuals like you are not in positions of having any influence over the lives of my people.

Wm. Dorich

doctor13 - 03:40pm May 3, 1997 EST (#179 of 195)

Amazing. We have provided evidence, repeatedly, which seems to fall on deaf ears because some people do not want to face the truth as to who committed the "slaughting of civilians." We have provided documentation that Bosnian government forces massacred their own people at all three breadline marketplaces to gain Western sympathies, yet walterbk still accuses the Serbs of "slaughtering civilians!" We have provided documentation that the babies on the bus were Serbian babies that had been killed by Muslims for which our media continues to demonize the Serbs. I doubt that Muslim babies would have had a Christian Orthodox priest officiating at the funeral services, don't you? We have documented the fact that 800 Serbian women who have been raped, repeatedly, by Muslims are of no consequence, but two women, as presented on 60 Minutes is worthy of receiving vast coverage on national TV. We have documented that the rape camps were concocted, as proven by Herb Brin, of the Heritage Southwest Jewish Press. We have documented that Srebrenica was a setup by the Bosnian government, exposed by a courageous Bosnian Parliamentarian, and we have documented that the thousands of "gone missing" soldiers, I repeat,"soldiers," not innocent civilians, made their way to other camps, as evidenced by the International Red Cross. We have presentated documentation that 22 newsmen, including Mike Wallace, certainly no friend of the Serbs, went to investigate the "possible" mass grave. They came back empty handed BECAUSE THERE WAS NO MASS GRAVE AT SREBRENICA AS PORTRAYED BY OUR MEDIA AND OUR STATE DEPARTMENT! Trouble is, the reporters didn't bother to tell the American people that there was no mass grave! The 400 bodies so far that have been uncovered (and they were not found in one mass grave) is a far cry from the 8,000 figure that has been tossed around so callously without any evidence or proof. Those bodies could be Serbian victims massacred by Muslims prior to the Serbs going into Srebrenica. That's why the Serbs felt it necessary to take Srebrenica in the first place. It was because Muslims were slaughtering Serbs, and it had to stop! We have provided documentation that the designated safe-havens were used by Mujahedin as guerrilla training camps to go out and do their filthy work while the UN looked the other way.

We have bombed the hell out of innocent Serbian men, women and children, knowing, KNOWING, that our excuse for doing so was based on a massacre (Markale) committed by Muslim government forces. We have killed tens of thousands of innocent Serbian men, women and children, by denying them medication, food, warm blankets, and even the chemicals to purify their water. Genocide by sanctions, anyone? When is enough, enough? As far as "some people" on this forum are concerned, enough will be when there aren't any more Serbs left in this world, and that undoubtely includes StSava and doctor13. However, I can escape this hatred for Serbs that is so evident on this forum, because I AM NOT A SERB! So, StSava, you're on your own.

Even though we provide, REPEATEDLY, evidence for our statements, we have never seen any evidence or documentation to support what is said by those who attack us. It's the old "if you don't like the message, kill the messenger," routine.

"But, what I also resent, is (are?) predators like yourself who prey on peoples' fears and stereotypes." Perhaps you should heed your own advice, sir, for you are an expert at it. Your blind hatred of the Serbian people borders on maniacal behavior. It is a disease! Get some help.

walterbk - 05:19pm May 3, 1997 EST (#180 of 195)

Mr. Dorich,

Yet again, the issues raised by my previous posting on the Serbian Chetnik movement's published doctrin advocating systematic ethnic cleansing of non-Serbs from conquered territories (in the book The Chetnik Movement of Daraza Mihailovich (Belgrade, 1979)) remain unanswered and unopposed.

Your response indicates that neither you nor doctor 13 are interested in serious discussion about controversial issues and an exchange of information and ideas. Rather, you are content to hide behind melodrama and calling anyone who disagrees with you anti-Serb and Nazi-lover.

I think it's actually kind of ironic that on the bottom of this screen one finds the words "You cannot rewrite history..." since it is precisely what you gentlement seem to relish in. According to you, Serbs have never killed anybody - ever - either during the current conflict or in history, yet everyone in history and currently (apparantly even I) has conspired or is conspiring against Serbs. Can you then please explain to me how Serbia has managed to systematically increase its territory over the last 200 years.

You have mentioned Nuremberg documents as indicating that 1.7 million Serbs died during WWII. All Nuremberg documents are referenced. Would you be so kind as to provide the specific documents and reference information for the documents you are drawing these figures from.

sofija - 05:43pm May 3, 1997 EST (#181 of 195)

Not everyone in the Chetnik movement was a saint but Mihailovic tried throughout the war to recruit non-Ustashe Croats (he failed) and Slovenians (there was some success here). Mihailovic also did not support the Serbian extremists who carried out reprisal killings late in the war. In fact Mihailovic didn't call himself a Chetnik and insisted that he was an officer in the Yugoslav Home Army.

I had access to Mihailovic's writings while I was a post-doctoral fellow at the Hoover Institute-Stanford University. By the 1930s Mihailovic made it clear that he supported the notion of Croatians breaking away from Yugoslavia because he thought they shouldn't be forced to live in a state that they hated. That's right..he argued self-determination for Croatia. The issue for Mihailovic, as is the issue today, was of borders and the Serb minority. Pasic, the prime minister of Yugoslavia in the interwar period, mulled over the idea of just letting the Croats out of the post WWI arrangement but passed on the idea because of the Serb sacrifices in WWI. Too bad, that was a real mistake.

In the late 1980s archives in Great Britain were made available to researchers, accidentally it seems, and some fine research on Mihailovic was done by David Martin "The Web of Disinformation" and Michael Lees "The Rape of Serbia." Neither of these authors is a Serb and their discussions of events during the war are quite illuminating. Lees was in Yugoslavia on the ground representing the British military. Mihailovic also on occasion executed Serbs who killed Croat and Muslim civilians; as a military officer this was his duty. Meanwhile Pavelic gave out awards to killers. Any attempt at trying to create a moral symetry between the Ustashe and Mihailovic is ridiculous.

Steven Majstorovic Duquesne University

doctor13 - 09:38pm May 3, 1997 EST (#182 of 195)

Walterbk writes,

"According to you, Serbs have never killed anybody -- ever -- either during the current conflict or in history, yet everyone in history and currently (apparently even I) has conspired or is conspiring against the Serbs."

According to walterbk, Muslims have never killed anybody -- ever -- either during the current conflict in history, yet everyone in history and currently (apparently even I) has conspired or is conspiring against Muslims and Croats.

Walterbk's responses indicate that he is not interested in serious discussion about controversial issues and an exchange of information and ideas. Rather he is content to hide behind melodrama and calling anyone who disagrees as anti-Muslim and anti-Croat.

I think it's actually kind of ironic that on the bottom of this screen one finds the words "You cannot rewrite history . . . " since it is precisely what walterbk seems to relish in.

StSava - 10:56pm May 3, 1997 EST (#183 of 195)

I agree with Doctor 13, Walter has the Chutzpah to suggest that we Serbs do not wish to discuss this absurd book, but it is he, over the past several weeks, who refused to discuss every piece of evidence that I presented. Come now Walter, you can't have it both ways. This is not a cafeteria line in which you pick and choose only those subject that you wish to respond to. How cleverly you try to bait me and other to respond to this stupid book. Don't count on me!

I'll respond to you when you answer all of my posts in which I have presented evidence and asked for your dialogue, only to receive you arrogant silence.

Wm. Dorich

StSava - 11:56pm May 3, 1997 EST (#184 of 195)

ÒHistory rewards the aggressors,Ó was the title of the article written by Fouad Ajami in the New Republic in August, 1995. Those words have come to pass as Muslims prove the ultimate aggressors and terrorists. They have now taken their militancy to the board room of one of this nation's largest publishing houses, Simon & Schuster.

Muslim aggression has come to mean many things to those of us in the West, a lack of real freedom, constant threats of violence, bombings of such places as the World Trade Center and the downing of our commercial aircraft and the terror does not end here around us, even our troops on Arab soil are targeted with impunity. But the target today is the American Constitution and the Muslims defecated on that bill of rights as though they turned it into toilet tissue. Salman Rushdie discovered the hard way what freedom of the press really is all about when it comes to the Muslim world. Today, Zionist owned Simon & Schuster the worlds largest English Language publisher of children's books pulled a book off of the market because a few paragraphs offended a few Muslims. Well, Norman Mailer just published an ÒautobiographyÓ in the first person as Jesus Christ and it offends the hell out of me, but I am not demanding that the publisher pull this trash from the market! I would defend with my life his right to write whatever he wishes but its my right not to buy the trash. The book in question is by William Jay Jacobs and is entitled: ÒGreat Lives: World ReligionsÓ and the offending paragraph is: ÒDuring his lifetime he was a man who loved beautiful women, fine perfume, and tasty food. He took pleasure in seeing the heads of his enemies torn from their bodies by the swords of his soldiers. He hated Christians and Jews, poets and painters, and anyone who criticized him. Once he had a Jewish prisoner tortured in order to learn the location of the man's hidden treasure. Then, having uncovered the secret, he had his victim murdered and added the dead man's wife to the collection of women in his harem.Ó Apparently the Muslims are now going to rewrite history as not a sentence in that statement is untrue.

The prophet Mohammed (570-632 A.D.) is not better than any other religious leader of the world and he should be judged by his own words and deeds. Muhammad is praised in Islamic literature as a Òman of peaceÓÑhe was anything but! In A.D. 624, the Prophet announced the concept of the Jihad-the holy war. He said in the Koran: ÒKill those who join other gods with God (e.g. Christians) wherever you shall find them, and seize them and slay them, and lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush.Ó In the 9 years that followed, this Òman of peaceÓ ordered more than 27 military campaigns, personally leading 10 of them and indeed with a sword in his hand. These Muslim historical revisionists are repugnant. But let us investigate some of the relevant data we know about the Prophet Muhammad. In 626-28 MuhammadÕs Arab forces destroyed a Jewish tribe and killed Marhab, the Jewish leader. The Muslim General Ali captured MarhabÕs wife, a Jewess by the name of Zainab. Ali gave Zainab to the Prophet Muhammad, known for his lust of Jewish flesh. Historical documents attest to Muhammad being expelled from the Jewish community of Medina because he displayed too great an interest in Jewish women. Muhammad delighted in ZainabÕs beauty and made her one of his favorite wivesÑshe did not accept her slavery passively and as an excellent cook, she excelled in preparing MuhammadÕs favorite meals, until she was successful in poisoning the prophet. Before his death, Muhammad executed her. ZainabÕs last words were: ÒIf he were truly GodÕs holy one, my poison would not have harmed him. But since he is a mere impostor, let him die.Ó Little wonder the Muslims hate the Jews with such passion, a Jew killed their Prophet.

aponine - 08:46am May 4, 1997 EST (#185 of 195)

StSava 5/3/97 11:56pm I see you have progressed on to an anti-Arab tirade.

"Little wonder the Muslims hate the Jews with such passion, a Jew killed their Prophet"

The exact, and I mean EXACT same thing can be said about Christians.

StSava, I think it is human nature--and certain I, too, am guilty of this--to accuse others of faults and hypocrisies that we possess ourselves. It's called projection--and it means focusing on others so we don't have to look at our own nasty deeds.

You understandably have alot of anger and bitterness, but you should think about trying to purge yourself of it before you suffer a stroke. This all has to be taking a physical toll on you.

kenavo - 11:03am May 4, 1997 EST (#186 of 195)

The following posting is from Arnold Harris and his wife Stefanja Prasnjak Harris. It was originally sent in the form of a letter to the NYT. Mr. Harris, a frequent contributor to the Michael Reagan radio talk show, has given me permission to post this letter on this forum.

Mirko Bodul

4/29/97

To: Opinion Editor The New York Times

From: Arnold Harris & Stefanija Prasnjak Harris 3427 County Road P Mount Horeb, WI 53572

Re: NYT reportage on Croatia

Certain news analysis and opinion articles by A. M. Rosenthal and Chris Hedges which appeared in the New York Times in April 1997 are an interesting example of the purposeful demonization of the Croatian nation and delegitimation of the Croatian state by journalists who know nothing of Croatian history and little more than nothing about life in southeastern Europe.

So you think we are fascists? Because we display on our flag the ancient white-and red checkerboard national emblem of Croatia? Because CroatiaÕs unit of currency is the kuna? Because nobody in Croatia or the worldwide Croatian diaspora will support the forced return of Serbs who, before they in turn were driven out by the very war that they unleashed, acquiesced or assisted in slaughter or plunder in large parts of Croatia? Your editorialists also seem displeased that Croatia, rejecting thinly-disguised western plans to reconstruct the despised Jugoslav federation, has refused to participate in the Southeast European Cooperative Initiative. Finally, The NYT has written off Croatia, as it were, because of the sweepingly victorious reelection of President Franjo Tudjman and his Croatian Democratic Union in an open and fair election..

Our family is Jewish as well as Croatian. It was our honor and privilege to have known as a friend the late great Rabbi Meir Kahane, who was martyred by an Arab assassin in New York. One thing he taught us both is that when editorial writers of liberal newspapers such as the NYT identify your people or cause as fascists, it signifies their frustration with the concepts of nation and nationalism that they neither understand nor empathize withÑunless the nation in question fits current standards of political correctness (Arabs, Serbs, non-white Africans?). So, okay, by your standards we are fascists; Our reply? So what?

Neither A. M. Rosenthal or any other NYT writer paid much attention to Croatia when the Jugoslav army destroyed Vukovar in late 1991, following a hopeless defensive struggle as brave and immortal as that of the Warsaw ghetto against the Nazis. In Vukovar as well as Warsaw, the victims who surrendered were slaughtered, and following the destruction of Vukovar, the Serb cetnici marched down the shattered streets singing "Slobo, send us only salad, we have more than enough fresh Croatian meat." And back in 1945, after the Croatian Army surrendered to the British forces of Field Marshall Alexander near Bleiburg, Austria, hundreds of thousands of disarmed Croatians and their families were put to death by TitoÕs communists. The NYT managed to avert their gaze from all this, time after time. Just as when the initial appalling news of the Nazi genocide of the Jews was smuggled out of Europe in 1942, the NYT hid this news on an interior page because of the self-effacing kind of assimilated Jews who ran your newspaper in those years were afraid of embarrassing the hypocrite Franklin Delano Roosevelt with unpleasant news about mass murders that could cause diversions from the main war effort.

doctor13 - 11:07am May 4, 1997 EST (#187 of 195)

Aponine thinks that StSava may "understandably have a lot of anger and bitterness, but you should think about trying to purge yourself it before you suffer a stroke."

What the Aponine's and the walterbk's et al don't want to admit to themselves is that for the first time, the Serbian view has been given the opportunity to tell its side of the story through this discussion group.

To the contrary, instead of suffering a stroke, it has prevented StSava from having one. After writing articles and letters to the media for years and having been completely ignored, StSava finally has the opportunity to speak of what has happened to the Serbian people and the lies that are being told about them, and to relate his own experiences of "ethnic cleansing" that occurred in his own family.

Airing his grievances is the best way of his avoiding a stroke.

Keep it up StSava. Because of your articulate and precise style of writing, you apparently have hit a raw nerve. And isn't it considerate for some to be so concerned with your health? Is this their way of shutting you up?

At the rate you are going, who knows, you may be causing others to have a stroke!

kenavo - 11:09am May 4, 1997 EST (#188 of 195)

Part II con't:

This second posting is the final part of a letter from Arnold Harris and his wife Stefanja Prasnjak Harris. It was originally sent in the form of a letter to the NYT. Mr. Harris, a frequent contributor to the Michael Reagan radio talk show, has given me permission to post this letter on this forum.

Mirko Bodul

4/29/97

To: Opinion Editor The New York Times

From: Arnold Harris & Stefanija Prasnjak Harris 3427 County Road P Mount Horeb, WI 53572

Re: NYT reportage on Croatia

On the paternal side of the Croatian half of our family, the Prasnjaks, had lived in the little village of Gora near Petrinja for countless centuries. In the summer and autumn of 1991, cetnici overwhelmed the lightly-armed Croatian constabulary, took control of this region, committed widespread gruesome killings and other acts of terror, and drove out the Croatian population. Now you expect our people to welcome them back? If in fact the murderers or their accomplices return, the victimized Croatian families who have returned to their destroyed homes in Gora and dozens of other locales will crack their necks like chickens, and all the Croatian nation will applaud. Push us too far and see what happens.

Fascists, are we? Why not some editorials about Serbian fascism? The NYT never bothered to review SerbiaÕs Secret War (ISBN 0-89096-688-5), by Dr. Philip J. Cohen and published by Texas A&M University Press in 1996. Dr. Cohen, who like us is Jewish, analyzed in detail the Serbian collaboration with the Nazis in World War II and how their own conspiratorial nationalism generated the bloodletting of SerbiaÕs most recent Balkan war. Perhaps your newspaper never reviewed it because the facts and analyses are fundamentally at odds with the pro-Serb and anti-Croatian prejudices that A.M. Rosenthal has acquired, like a connoisseur collector of false political judgments.

aponine - 12:19pm May 4, 1997 EST (#189 of 195)

doctor13 5/4/97 11:07am As for you, Doc, I think you've already suffered a stroke--and it's interfered with your ability to think straight.

All I am trying to point out is that not one group mentioned in this forum, not one: Croatians, Serbs, Muslims, Jews or Christians--can say they have no blood on their hands.

I can only say for sure that I have no blood on my hands. How about you?