prewettjw - 06:51pm Apr 17, 1997 EST (#30

Very courageous article. You're sure gonna catch a lot of flack from Roman Catholics. Perhaps some day more critical attention will be paid to the inordinate degree of influence the Roman Catholic religious institution has over the United States government [and many other governments]. WBW, John [Delete Message]

New York Times on the Web Forums

A.M. Rosenthal: The Rebirth of Croatian Fascism

Share your thoughts on recent articles by columnist A.M. Rosenthal.

Go to Rosenthal's Op-Ed about the rebirth of Croatian Fascism.

p_makarov - 07:54pm Apr 15, 1997 EST (#20

My apology for double post. There was no acknowledgement that the message was sent so I pressed the button once again. Sorry. Also, I'm sorry to see how my HTML file turned out on NYT site. It should have passed without problem.

On the topic of Mr. Rosenthal's article I can express nothing but gratitude. I am astonished that New York Times Big Brothers let the truth be published. It was exactly NYT that for six years now was leading Goebbelsian lynch mob against one entire nation - the proud Serbian people.

May be the time has come for the implementation of the cowboy traditional methods:

1) too little - too late and...

2) adding insult to injury -

for Croatia is (thanks to Imperial America and its obedient mass media) finally - Serb free. After 4 (four) long centuries of Serb existence in the region called Krajina, Ustashi storm troopers (helped in any way possible by American Administration and its military power) have cleansed more than half million Serbs out of their ancestral lands and property. Only the last group of Serbs in East Slavonia (some 130,000) of them are waiting to be expelled - exactly in these days!

Now that we are facing fait accompli - the truth is finally allowed to see the light... But *not* the one about Bosnia as ethnic cleansing of 1.5 million Serbs there is still in preparation. There (and quite openly so) America trains, advices and equips Muslim fundamentalist regime of Alija Izetbegovic in preparation of the repetition of what have already happened with Krajina.

Dark is the hour as fascism has struck for the second time in this century. And there is no-one to stop the sweettalking fascism of America. This time whole continents will be subdued, whole nations exterminated - in the name of peace and democracy.

Petar Makara (Makarov)

PS: Please visit our site at: http://www.srpska-mreza.com/ and press "Library" button. To undo mountains of Western shameless lies is a voluminous task but we are putting our best effort (and after months of work about 40% is done - just enough to make you take another look at NYT professionalism - the one concerning Goebbelsian propaganda).

maher_jp - 09:14pm Apr 15, 1997 EST (#21

God bless Abe Rosenthal! I marvel that the NYT has from 1990 on been backing the Ustashe and mujehadin in the Balkans against the Serbs. For them the NYT has been what the Protocols of the Elders have been AND STILL ARE for Jews.

john peter maher

miljkovic - 10:06pm Apr 15, 1997 EST (#22

It is so beautiful to see that there are journalists in this country that have still retained high moral standards, who are not afraid to tell the truth, and who have highest respect for their profession. It is though sad that this particular journalist is associated with the trash newspaper such as The New York Times. It must be very embarrassing for him to be on the same payroll with Chuck Sudetic, John Burns, Anthony Lewis, Bernard Gwertzman, Chris Hedges, etc.However, I know that all what Mr. Rosenthal wrote today was known to all of the above gentlemen long time ago, but somehow forgot to inform the American people of the real situation in the Balkans. Perhaps State Department, Croatian, Saudi Arabian, and Jewish lobbies were too powerful and your colleagues were ÒforcedÓ to be dishonest because the New World order was threatened or perhaps because in this country everything is for sale for the right price. Bravo Mr. Rosenthal and thank you for bringing a little fresh air, albeit a little too late, into the anti-Serbian atmosphere in this country, that we are forced, thank to your colleagues, to breath for the last four years in spite of the heavy stench.

fedup - 12:48pm Apr 16, 1997 EST (#23 of 30)

Rosenthal has merely turned his anti-Muslim crusade toward Europe.

myownleader - 07:30pm Apr 16, 1997 EST (#24

Lovely piece of work Mr. Rosenthal! Telling the truth is not so hard to do, if only they (the NYT) would let it be told.

But, in the name of "balanced reporting," I wonder what is the mouthpiece of American fascism, the New York Times, preparing against the Serbs this time? For, up to now, whenever the NYT had managed to inform its readers about the background of ex-Yugo wars -- a clear NO-NO since it would "confuse the readers" and ruin the imperialist agenda of the American New World Order Nazis -- a new salvo of anti-Serbism would engulf the front pages of the NYT.

If NYT managed to 'somehow' connect the Bosnian Moslems with the WW II Ustashi Croatia -- which they were more than a willing part of, including the Moslem SS divisions -- we could all breathe a sigh of relief and perhaps start to believe in journalistic integrity.

Until then, the crumbs of truth by Mr. Rosenthal, will have to be savored.

-Daniel D. Chukurov

lenagaga - 08:23pm Apr 16, 1997 EST (#25)

I wish to express my gratitude and my admiration for Mr. Rosenthal. Mr. Rosenthal and David Binder (who seems to be shunned from the NYT) are the only two NYT journalists who had enough courage to write the truth about the wars in the Balkans (knowledge of the wars, I suppose, had all the journalists, but it was expedient to write what the State Department and the NYT editors wanted to be published).

For me it's not even surpising that this Forum is opened now. This is the American way - to punish or kill imaginery enemies and later to appologize (Rosenbergs, Japanese Americans - to name just a few). The Forum is, unfortunatelly, long overdue. The Forum and Mr. Rosenthal cannot remove the stain of shame and dishonesty from the NYT.

Mirjana Petrovic

pvujin - 02:45am Apr 17, 1997 EST (#26

Mr.Rosenthal's article points to a poignant truism; Nazis are back in Croatia! Their ressurection should not come as a surprise, though, because Croatia has, unfortunately, built both its independant states of this century, the infamous World War II German puppet-state and the latter Republic of Croatia, through strong nationalistic sentiment that manifests itself in Nazism. What should really surprise is the unfaltering commitment of the State Department to the development, millitary and economical, of the Republic of Croatia and its, now openly, pro-Ustashe leadership. Have the western policy-makers decided to neglect this aspect of Croatian democracy, or have they, having only the communist and dictatorial president of Serbia, Milosevic, to turn to for possible resolution of the Balkan crisis, chosen the "lesser" of two evils? With admiration for Mr. Rosenthal and the NYT, Predrag Vujin

eshaw1 - 04:45am Apr 17, 1997 EST (#27

It is informative to see the nature of the other posted responses to Rosenthal's diatribe. That the only congratulations clearly come from partisan Serbs, guilty of the vast majority of the war crimes over the past five years, is not surprising. It is precisely this type of historical "tar-brushing" that the Serbs used as propaganda justifying the establishment of "Greater Serbia" and unleashing the terrible war which has consumed Yugoslavia for the past six years. The article focused almost exclusively on WWII Ustashe crimes, which were clearly dispicable. But to condemn the existing Croatian Government without any shred of evidence that the Ustashe are returning is irresponsible, and just serves to fan the flames of conflict in a region which is trying desparately to reach for peace.

dragan85 - 12:47pm Apr 17, 1997 EST (#28

Mr. Rosenthal has written one more article which is hardly different of most of his work related to Croatia. Once again the whole blame for the conflict in former Yugoslavia lies on Croatia and it can be traced back to the Nazi-installed puppet regime that ruled that country during WWII. Very simplistic and one-sided view, to say the least, taking into account that the other Nazi's creations in the region and elsewhere were very similar to the one in Croatia. Mr. Rosenthal writes that not all Croats were Fascists, which implies that most of them were, and the fact is that only 5% of the Croatian population during WWII supported the Fascist regime. He cites the article by the New York Times correspondent Chris Hedges (April 12), calling it 'a fine piece of journalism' in which Mr. Hedges writes 'about the rebirth of Fascism in Croatia'. This article is based on the events that happened during the election campaign of a small right-wing nationalist party in Croatia. The fact is, this party menaged to get exactly zero seats in the recent elections. So much for Croatian Fascism. Still, both Rosenthal and Hedges are quick to label the whole Croatian nation as Fascist. This is only a couple of examples of misinterpretations and malicious exaggerations this article is full of. The posted responses show clearly the public Mr. Rosenthal is trying to please - it consists overwhelmingly of Serbian lobbyists, who knowing that their side is responsible for most of the crimes in the recent wars in Croatia and Bosnia, are desperately trying to justify them by (mis)using the events that happened over fifty years ago. Dragan Mirkovic

johnnycro - 03:09pm Apr 17, 1997 EST (#29

Why does no one ever write about the Serbian military state of Yugoslavia before WWII? When the peoples of Croatia and Slovenia where forced to live under military occupation (by murderous and hateful Serbian Soldiers, Croatian soldiers were stationed mainly in Macedonia to opress the Macadonians for the Serbian regime) and dictatorship, while those in Serbia were allowed to move freely about. Why do they not talk about the Serbian Facist state during WWII? Did the Serbs not claim of complete cleansing of the Jewish population under this facist regime, and glorify it with a postage stamp which read "Juden Free"? Why must the history or Croatia be written by Serbians and accepted as the truth? And when a Croatian tries to say "it actually happened this way", it's a lie? Yes the Ustashe did exist, and yes they were worst than the Nazi, but they made up less than 5% of the population, and most were returned from exile abroad by the Nazi and installed as the government. After years of oppression by the Serbian dictatorship in Belgrade, the peoples of Croatia welcomed any change with open arms. Were the people at fault to go blindly into this after being so violated by the dictatorship of Belgrade, who were trying to create this Greater Serbia? Did anybody know the extent of these horrifying individuals? The Nazis sure didn't. If it wasn't for the acts of the Ustashe, the peoples of Croatia wouldn't have a reason to revolt, and the Partizans would have probably not been as successful. Starting with the Serbs (who were becoming extinct), then the Croatians, who opposed the Ustashe and joined up with the Partisans to liberate all of former Yugoslavia from facism. In turn, the English and allies probably wouldn't have supported the Partizans (who thoughout the war did not support the Partizans, but were supporting the Serbian Cetniks)if these atrosoties did not happen. Does anyone know that Tito was waiting for an British invasion of Dalmatia, and was ready to fight the British, because at that time the British supported the Cetniks? Probably not, but it's true. The British did not support the Partizans until the end of the war, because they though of them as week. But as soon as the majority of the Dalmatian coast (which is mostly Croatian) joined ranks with the Partizans did they have enough muscle to fight the Germans, the Ustashe, and the Cetniks. Why are the Croatians always to blame for everything? Because the Serbs said so, so it is then the law of the land. So much of the history of that region has been altered, it isn't funny. Thanks mainly to the Serbs and the Partizans or Communists. There is so much more I can write, but I find myself going into so many different subject and losing the focus of the discussion. The Ustashe are not, and will not come to power in Croatia. Yes the government have given pension to those who fought alongside the Germans in WWII, and yes they still exist, but are far smaller than you make them out to be. Why give them recognition anyways? At the recent election, no known Ustashe has won a seat in government. Franjo Tudjman is an ex-Partizan, Communist. Fought alongside Tito. HDZ, the ruling party are all ex-Communists. And HDZ also took significant losses in Dalmatia, losing control of many of the local governments. I'm done, for now.

prewettjw - 06:51pm Apr 17, 1997 EST (#30

marko_k - 12:16am Apr 18, 1997 EST (#31

Anyone literate enough can get to a local library and open *any* major Encyclopedia and check the basic facts. There, quite easily one will find in Encyclopedia of Holocaust (as Mr. Rosenthal have suggested) that Croatian fascists (so called - Ustashi) and their Muslim helpers managed to slaughter at least 750,000 Serbian men, women, children during 5 years of WWII. And that they did in most barbaric fashion.

Mind you - that encyclopedia was not written by Serbs. It was written by surviving Jews.

Then in Encyclopedia Britannica you will find that what Ustashi did in Bosnia can only be compared to what German fascists have done to Jews in Poland. Encyclopedia Britannica was also not written by Serbs... Or Encyclopedia Americana which mentions that even Nazi Germans were shocked by Ustashi bestialities.

Then go to the section that talks about WWII and open ANY (just ANY) book that talks about WWII and mentions Yugoslavia or Croatia - they all tell the same story: Ustashi were the worst fascists the world have known.

For those who gather their facts from government controlled media like New York Times, CNN or other propaganda outlets, despite the clear history of lying of these entities in any and every crisis that America was involved - my deepest condolences. You are not brain washed - you are brain dead.

If you are falling for the same story over and over how America goes round the world bombing different nations in order to bring peace you are truly a basket case.

Land for peace, land for peace - the formula of cowboy genocide over hundreds of different, indigenous, Indian nations used to go. Now the Serbs, the Jews of Israel are forced to make room for America's one billion people strong customer - the oil rich Muslims. And while that is true no justice will be possible... And you will read not one sentence of truth in the yellow newspaper of New York Times.

Note that in the news sections of the paper you will read the same phrases unchanged. Only in op-ed would they allow articles that will present the truth - but only in a fashion of wild ranting.

One article of Mr. Rosenthal, no matter how truthful cannot counterbalance six long years of pure racism, of pure fascist propaganda against one whole nation - the proud Serb nation.

pvujin - 01:25am Apr 18, 1997 EST (#32

Mr. Rosenthal's article raised a lot of commotion judging by the responses posted. I do not think, however, that it should be interpreted as a tool of Croato-Serbian verbal conflict. As many have noticed, most responses to the article draw from the rich and rotten history of this dark region, the Balkans. But, history is not what interests us. The real question is, how to help the manipulated, offended, and enraged Croatian people from the social disease called Nazism. Once both Croats and Serbs forget the crimes of yesterday, they might expect to, finally, focus on the problems of today and tommorrow. Predrag Vujin

folly1 - 10:58am Apr 18, 1997 EST (#33

Mr. Rosenthal, your long-standing diatribes supporting Israel no matter what it's actions are repetitious and tedious. Most Israeli critics have no problem with Israel's internal politics, which are democratic. But we have major problems with her treatment of neighboring peoples which can only be called unlawful, arrogant and brutal. As for the Arab-Israeli attack count I score it 2-1-2 with Israel's attacks being less justified than the attacks on her.