On The Religious Beliefs of W: Is George Bush Really A Christian?
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Erik the Bloodaxe- 09:31 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind
Not according to this essay. Or this one. And here is what another writer has to say about the religious beliefs of George Bush (from Onlinejournal.com)

Now, can anyone tell me with a straight face that George W. Bush is really a Christian. If so, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas f

cont.

for sale real cheap.

George Bush is not a Christian. Anyone agree or disagree with that? 

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 09:42 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #2 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

The first essay linked above can be found here.

Sorry about that. 

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Clacson- 09:46 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #3 of 264

About as Christian as Bob "took my wife to get an abortion" Barr. 

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Mark Gunn - 09:49 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #4 of 264
Jesus, save me from your followers.

W. is only a Christian for political gain. 

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M. Indbomb - 09:51 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #5 of 264
"There goes the neighborhood" - D.C. residents

About as Christian as Bob "took my wife to get an abortion" Barr.

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Verwirrung- 09:51 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #6 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Jesus saves. God pays. 

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J Swadesh - 10:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #7 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

No one can remember Shrub saying anything at the time he claims to have been "born again". That is the single most persuasive piece of evidence that he is simply continuing a pattern of lying that began with his desertion from the National Guard and proceeded through his drinking and alleged doping and womanizing right through to his election theft. 

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Amy Ballentine - 10:08 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #8 of 264
"If somebody's got a better idea, I hope they bring it forward, because I will listen" GWB, 01/23/2001

Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable coupons.

Actually, I read something a while ago about how Gore's political opinions were too liberal for teh Baptist chuch, and Shrubs too conservative for the Methodist church. I have no link.

No, I don't think Shrub is a Christrian. I think he says whatever fits the moment.

Sorry for the atrociaous spelling - I cut my finger and my typing skills are way off. 

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M. Indbomb - 10:13 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #9 of 264
"There goes the neighborhood" - D.C. residents

Jesus saves, but Fernandez gets the rebounds. 

Susan MacFarland - 10:14 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #10 of 264
Gore won Florida. Check it out for yourself at http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=181 GORE WON THE ELECTION. What has happened in this country?

Ouch. Hope your finger feels better, Amy.

I can't imagine a Christian mocking someone who is pleading for their life, especially when this "Christian" is about to have the person killed. 

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Brian Sponsler - 10:14 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #11 of 264

Great. The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching because (he claims) GW didn't run around announcing that he'd been born again.

But, would you like him more, or less, if you were convinced he was a Christian? You know - that mind controlling, patriarchial cult mainly responsible during its 2000 year history for witch-burnings and the suppression of peaceful, nature-loving pagans? 

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Amy Ballentine - 10:27 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #12 of 264
"If somebody's got a better idea, I hope they bring it forward, because I will listen" GWB, 01/23/2001

Thanks Susan. It is okay now, just so bandaged that typing is hard. I was being stupit with an exato knife, and I should have known better.

Brian, J Swadesh was not talking, I don't believe, about Shrub runnign for Pres., but about at the time of his being born again, at which time he was in the public eye, have made a failed run for Congress.

Were I to believe that Shrub was a real Christian, I would not give him any grief about it. I do not lay the entire sorry history of christianity at the feet of individual chrisitans. 

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(Deleted message originally posted by Brian Sponsler on 10:41 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001)

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Brian Sponsler - 10:41 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #14 of 264

He is claiming that because in 1986 (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again enough for word to get back to Swadesh, that that is evidence that the conversion did not occur.

Pretty idiotic position, but then that's all I'd expect from him. The fact that Swadesh claims (each and every time he posts) that he doesn't even want to hear such claims just make it more amusing.

But continue to do your thing - bitch because W is a Christian and bitch because he isn't one. I guess you think that's fun, and obviously your intellectual rigour allows it. 

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 10:47 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #15 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

Sponslor,

George Bush is not a Christian. JSwadesh is merely stating a fact that is positively self-evident based on Bush's behaviour, mannerisms, words, and actions since his purported "conversion" to Christianity.

Many millions of sincere, believing Christians voted for the man because they thought he was one of them. He's a fraud plain and simple.

Anyone who supports him or his policies needs to take a good heard look at who they are supporting. 

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Abigail Quart - 10:52 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #16 of 264
"Tyranny begins when one power, one church, one party introduces itself into the private life of its citizens." - Jack Lang, former French minister of culture.

Depends on how you define "Christian" I guess. 

Aml Clymer - 10:53 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #17 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

Erik the Bloodaxe ..great post...when you get finished with whether President Bush is a Christian, please do share you enlightened view on others. Is Barney Frank a "real" homosexual? Was Mother Teresa a "real" Catholic? Does Jess Jackson "really" believe what he says? Is Alan Deshowitz a "hypocrite" for teaching a course at Harvard Law entitled "Religion and the Law"? Is Joe Lieberman really a "Jew"? Did OJ Simpson really "kill" his wife?

If that is not enough...go to some other countries, ask them if they "really" are what they say they are. You will not meet the tolerance your ilk meets here. 

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J Swadesh - 10:57 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #18 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

Great. The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching because (he claims) GW didn't run around announcing that he'd been born again.

Surprisingly, some of his closest friends were not aware of any momentous passage or prodigal son's return or any great religious awakening. For instance, during the period in the mid-80s when, Bush says, he found Christ and gave up drinking and "got right with God," Mike Conaway, who worked with him every day from January 1982 until September 1986, says, "I didn't see any change in his behavior." Curiously, Bush never sat down and talked with his prep-school and college roommate, Clay Johnson, who works with Governor Bush as his chief of staff, about "his increased religiosity.<http://www.gailsheehy.com/Politics/polimain_bush3.html>

But, would you like him more, or less, if you were convinced he was a Christian?

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Mike McG - 10:57 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #19 of 264
Shuck Frub

Well, since I'm a Catholic and therefore, according to Shrub's pals down at Bob Jones U., a member of a cult and not a Christian, I guess I don't have any right to say anything on this topic. 

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Organic2000- 10:58 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #20 of 264
"Democracy does not need the church or the clergy. The fruits of Christianity in both clergy and laity, are superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- President John Adams, 1784.

See the Presidunce praying at th flag pole.

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Brian Sponsler - 10:58 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #21 of 264

Yeah, yeah, Bloodaxe - I know - you're just so concerned about all those "decent", "sincere" Christians out there. You're only thinking of them!

How about letting us "decent", "sincere" Christians make up our own mind, ok? Oh - I forgot - we did. Bush won.

Now go back to whatever Norse-flavored New Age bullcrap you claim to favor while hanging with your SCA buddies. Real shame about Christianity breaking up that practice of burying your wives and slaves with you for the trip to Vahalla. Guess we'll have to do penance for that! 

M. Indbomb - 11:00 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #22 of 264
"There goes the neighborhood" - D.C. residents

Getting a little testy aren't we Brian? 

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J Swadesh - 11:04 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #23 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

Bush won.

Please go back and answer the fact that I have a quote stating that no one can remember Bush's conversion. 

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Jim Sagle - 11:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #24 of 264
GOP slogan, adapted from the Russian: "We pretend to integrity, and our followers pretend to believe us."

Bush won.

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Brian Sponsler - 11:06 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #25 of 264

What's to discuss, Swadesh? The fact that you'd hang such a pathetic attempt at character assasination under your tagline is proof of the shallowness of your thinking, that's all.

Is some kind of Swadesh-approval required of post-conversion behavior? Perhaps you should publish a Swadesh-approved guidebook for how to behave - I hope you'll cover all the major faiths!

People react to things in different ways. The fact that GW may have responded just like you ask others to is apparently lost on you. Maybe you should leave your phone number. If anyone reading this thread has a religious conversion, I'm sure you'll want to be informed. 

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J Swadesh - 11:07 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #26 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Jim

Thou shalt not lie.

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Brian Sponsler - 11:08 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #27 of 264

Oh - and he won. You could look it up. The vote was 271 - 267. That's why he is the President now.

And "lie" is a perfectly good translator's choice, btw. It wasn't written in English. 

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J Swadesh - 11:12 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #28 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

What's to discuss, Swadesh? The fact that you'd hang such a pathetic attempt at character assasination under your tagline is proof of the shallowness of your thinking, that's all.

You have made a number of hateful personal remarks about me. That speaks volumes about you.

You have spun and twisted to get away from the topic. But you have failed to answer the fact that no one can remember George Bush mentioning anything about this momentuous experience. 

J Swadesh - 11:14 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #29 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

Oh - and he [Bush] won. You could look it up. The vote was 271 - 267.

It is part of the sickness that makes it clear that George Bush has never been born again. 

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Rugellos Maase - 11:18 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #30 of 264
clintonista spin it out , "...to avoid prosecution, Clinton lied when he admitted that he had lied under oath."

Well, I'm not a Christian. I'm atheistic, a Jew by birth. I'm not prepared to identify "real" Christians.

But I am tolerant of all religions and those who profess to be religious. A liberal trait of which I'm rather proud. A liberal trait obviously absent in the "liberal faux" populating TT recently (several veterans of TT as well).

"ware the jackbooted goose stepping totalitarian thugs of the left (not to be confused with liberals) and the jackbooted goose stepping totalitarians of the right (not to be confused with conservatives). 

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Brian Sponsler - 11:21 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #31 of 264

You should read for content, Swadesh. I never accused you of making anything up. What "lie" do you think you've exposed?

I've never challenged your assertion that Bush didn't tell people that he had been saved. What the hell are you talking about? 

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Rugellos Maase - 11:24 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #32 of 264
clintonista spin it out , "...to avoid prosecution, Clinton lied when he admitted that he had lied under oath."

"...the fact that no one can remember George Bush mentioning anything about this momentuous experience. "

But the statement, as you've put it, is bearing false witness. 

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J Swadesh - 11:26 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #33 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian 1

You should read for content, Swadesh. I never accused you of making anything up. ...I've never challenged your assertion that Bush didn't tell people that he had been saved. What the hell are you talking about?

"Great. The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching because (he claims) GW didn't run around announcing that he'd been born again."

He is claiming that because in 1986 (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again enough for word to get back to Swadesh, that that is evidence that the conversion did not occur. Pretty idiotic position, but then that's all I'd expect from him.

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Rugellos Maase - 11:27 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #34 of 264
clintonista spin it out , "...to avoid prosecution, Clinton lied when he admitted that he had lied under oath."

"...the fact that no one can remember George Bush mentioning anything about this momentuous experience. "

But the statement, as you've put it, is bearing false witness. 

Brian Sponsler - 11:27 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #35 of 264

The county I live in carried Bush by 64% and uses punchcards. I suppose that you, and Al Gore, and all the other Democratic "good Christians" would be willing to decide the election based on a count (by our throughly Republican local leaders) of the hanging chads in our ballot boxes? You lost, get over it.

Obviously, many non-Christians would prefer to translate the word "Christian" into "Spineless Sucker Who Utters Encouragment, No Matter What I Do".

No thanks. 

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J Swadesh - 11:32 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #36 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

And now, to return to the topic of the thread: What evidence is there that George Bush is a Christian?

It has been pointed out that he claims to have been born again, but he never mentioned it at the time. No one noticed a change of behavior. We are asked to rely on his word.

It has been pointed out that he has been very slow to confess sin or demonstrate repentance. Multiple arrests, drunk driving, desertion-- it's all youthful indiscretions, washed away by his re-birth in Christ.

Which no one can remember him mentioning.

It has been pointed out that he lied repeatedly about his record in Texas. Pretty hard to argue that lying is an emulation of Jesus.

He's a big fan of the death penalty. Kind of hard to believe Jesus would have been.

And then there is this nasty business in Florida. Laws broken left and right. Cronyism. Mobs of paid congressional aides and Stormfront neoNazis acting as enforcers, Plainly unethical acts by Supreme Court Justices that were appointed by aWol's father.

Show me the acts of kindness, of peace, of gentleness, of mercy. Make the case,if there is one. 

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Brian Sponsler - 11:33 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #37 of 264

I'm stumped, Swadesh. I did characterize this:

J Swadesh - 10:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001 - #7 of 35

"No one can remember Shrub saying anything at the time he claims to have been "born again". That is the single most persuasive piece of evidence that he is simply continuing a pattern of lying..."

as

"claiming that because in (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again...is evidence that the conversion did not occur."

Did you mean to say something else? 

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J Swadesh - 11:34 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #38 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Can you just stay on the thread topic, Brian? Or is your case for George Bush so hopeless, so pathetically weak that you are forced to try to talk about anything else except George Bush's highly questionable membership in the Body of Christ? 

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J Swadesh - 11:36 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #39 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

. I did characterize this: J Swadesh - 10:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001 - #7 of 35 "No one can remember Shrub saying anything at the time he claims to have been "born again". That is the single most persuasive piece of evidence that he is simply continuing a pattern of lying..." as claiming that because in (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again...is evidence that the conversion did not occur.

Aml Clymer - 11:41 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #40 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

What is most amusing is that those who believe in nothing but the state are so eager to chime in and tell various believers what they should believe.

I hear more quotes from the Bible from the secular left than I have ever heard from my brethren on the right. Or even in college when that was my major.

Jerry Falwell thinks homosexuality is a sin...I have no problem with that. Joe Lieberman thinks God will get him if he eats lobster or oysters...OK by me...somebody wants to pray to Mecca five times a day...no sweat off my back...somebody else thinks moonstones have some magical power...even better! I will sell to them wholesale (Wiccans are some of my best customers).

But this left wing crap about the religious right...give me a break...it might play well in certain areas but, despite being a lie, it is rather ...well....trite and retro... 

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Brian Sponsler - 11:45 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #41 of 264

Swadesh, not being God, nor infalliable Mother Church, I am not capable of determing if a given individual is or is not a member of the Body of Christ. I think speculation on the state of the soul of another person is bad practice, most probably evidence of pride, and I am not going to do it.

You are merely attempting to generate this little parlour game to score political points, and I believe that your notions about how Christians are "supposed" to act is based more on that than on any understanding of theology.

But you have accused me of lying, and upon being asked was only able to cut and paste portions of my three posts, none of which were contradictory, and none of which accused you of lying.

So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act, I believe you should clearly specify exactly what you believe my lie to have been, so that I may seek forgiveness for any mistake I may have made regarding you. Certainly, you should be able to support your accusation that I have broken a Commandment. 

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Aml Clymer - 11:56 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #42 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

Brian Sponsler...well put! Your faith is YOUR faith.

One thing to debate theology. Another thing to throw around quotes from something you don't believe in the first place to denigrate another's faith (as seems to be the rule around here).

But that is the easy way to gut an opponent. One can quote the Koran, the Talmud, the New or Old Testament, the Tibetan Book of the Dead or any other holy book and make those who follow that religion appear, to the uneducated, to be stupid. 

J Swadesh - 12:08 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #43 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

I think speculation on the state of the soul of another person is generally a bad practice, most probably the evidence of false pride, and I am not going to do it.

But you have accused me of lying, and upon being asked was only able to cut and paste portions of my three posts, none of which were contradictory, and none of which accused you of lying.

You also have made the lying implication that I have invented something by continuing to use the phrasing "he claims". But facts have been presented. Facts that you refuse to address, but instead met with "What's to discuss, Swadesh?" At that moment, you sustained your lie rather than answer the argument.

It is even a lie to claim that "So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act," since I have never made such a claim. I have merely pointed out a well-sourced fact: that a man claims (years later, when starting to run for political office) that he was born again. Yet people who knew him at the time did not notice anything and he did not tell them that anything remarkable had occurred.

So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act, I believe you should clearly specify exactly what you believe my lie to have been, so that I may seek forgiveness for any mistake I may have made regarding you. Certainly, you should be able to support an the accusation that I have broken a Commandment.

But there's little point in me pointing out the massive hypocrisy between your behavior tonight and that of a professing Christian. I think if you'll read the epistles, you'll find that there's the suggestion that people who follow Jesus are convicted and changed by what is in their own hearts.

And now, since you have nothing to say and have been saying it at length, I think I'll enjoy my slumbers. 

P Glass - 12:34 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #44 of 264
Where I live, illegal residents are not called 'presidents', they are called 'squatters'.

And while you're slumbering, Joel:

Bush to Focus on a Favorite Project: Helping Religious Groups Help the Needy

WASHINGTON, Jan. 25 — President Bush said today that he was committed to making federal money more available to religious organizations that provide social services, a push that will be the focus of Mr. Bush's public statements and legislative proposals next week.

Aides said Mr. Bush's emphasis on using faith-based groups to aid the needy was likely to lead to a vigorous debate over the separation of church and state.......

Senior Democratic aides on Capitol Hill said the issue had not really arisen yet in concrete form. But many Democrats may well support the gist of Mr. Bush's proposals, these aides said. During the presidential campaign, former Vice President Al Gore, like Mr. Bush, advocated a more active role for religious organizations in federally funded social services.

Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, said, "I certainly think it's worth exploring, provided that there's some importance or sanctity given to the separation of church and state."

NYTimes

Here we go, folks. My money confiscated by your friendly church, temple, mosque and Evangelical what-have-you...any idea the corruption we're in for here?

"Religious groups and social services will be his focus, even though some Christian religious leaders who have spoken with Bush aides in the last few weeks said that the administration seemed unclear about how its new office for this effort would work.

As late as Wednesday, they said, Bush advisers were still asking evangelical groups for lists of religious organizations whose work they could mention when the Mr. Bush's initiatives are unveiled."

Mrs. Parker - 01:13 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #45 of 264

No one has to "guess" what character traits a Christian should display. The model of Jesus Christ was quite clear. I quote from the third article linked above:

First: What kind of God-fearing man could face the American people and claim a prize that he knows rightfully belongs to another man? What kind of dark heart would a person require to present himself to be sworn in, acclaimed, and heralded by "Hail to the Chief" while knowing that another man earned those celebrations? Surely a good, decent, born-again Christian could not accept such an appointment! Surely a person who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus would feel overwhelming guilt over the open theft from Al Gore for reasons of personal and partisan gain. Surely a Christian would denounce the suppression and exclusion of votes and insist on winning openly and fairly, or not at all.

[Sunday school teacher] Mrs. Dempsey would make short shrift of such action. "Thou shalt not steal."

Second: What would Jesus say about a man of power who would routinely and earnestly use that power to advance the interests of oppressors and profiteers at the expense of the poor and desperate? In the Colonia communities of Texas, brown-skinned children scratch holes in the dirt to defecate because there is no running water or sewer. George W. Bush has never visited the children of the Colonias. Texas is the second-hungriest state in the U.S. George W. Bush simply said he didn't believe that was true. In dozens of categories, the basic qualities of life for Texas families are neglected. George has asked Americans to admire his Texas record and trust that he will improve their lives and leave "no child behind" and allow the American dream to touch "every willing heart." And yet his pre-inauguration meetings have been with millionaires and profiteers and captains of industry and oppressors. George's meetings with the children of the Colonias and Appalachia and housing projects everywhere haven't made the pre-presidential schedule. Policy priorities are pretty clear, George.

The model of Christ is very plain, said Mrs. Dempsey. Treat each man is if he were your beloved brother. Respect him for his humanity and because he is made in God's image. Give him your coat if he asks for your shirt. Give sacrificially to those who have less, with no expectation of return, and no public display. Don't make another beg for help. Visit the sick, feed the poor, and free the prisoners. Hold your tongue. Don't wait for the armies of compassion. Do it yourself and do it now. "Give till it hurts!" she would say. And if you are a rich, powerful man who can choose to assign resources to wealthy profiteers who will pay you back in favors or power or wealth or to assign resources to children digging toilets in the dirt, there should be no hesitation or equivocation. "Suffer the little children" was not a commandment.

Third: A follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ could not slap around a whole people who are descended from slavery and saddled with widespread poverty and discrimination in the way that George has slapped them with his appointment of Ashcroft and Chavez to the Departments of Justice and Labor. An earnest and genuine follower of Christ could not so injure and intimidate Black leaders that only a few determined Congresswomen would dare to speak the truth about a stolen election. A man determined to live as Jesus instructed him could not allow racialists and bigots and theocrats and thugs to put him in power and use him to further their own grabs for empire and wealth. A man of pure intentions could not send thugs to quash the counting of votes from poor people. A man who truly is a healer could not bring about the misery that divides this country this night, or allow it to stand.

Continued... 

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Mrs. Parker - 01:15 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #46 of 264

continued...

The Fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness (meekness), goodness, patience, faithfulness, and self-control. Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the hungry, those who weep and those who are hated. Sunday schoolers learn that pride, envy, lying, gossip, malice, bearing false witness and greed must be set aside. I dare not think about what Mrs. Dempsey would do to someone who called another an "asshole." I do have a pretty good idea what Jesus would think about a lot of the things George does in his public life.

It's time for George W. Bush to either profess his faith or deny it. Either he is a follower of the teachings of Christ and must consistently behave like one, making the required sacrifices and earning the sanctification bestowed on him by followers, OR he is not a follower of Jesus and may behave with all the pride, arrogance, greed, and lust for wealth and power his little "heart" desires and that he currently and openly pursues.

It's got to be this or that.

Erik the Bloodaxe - 02:00 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #47 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

Ah, I see the freeps have shown up to try and derail this thread.

Brian, I am not a "New-Age Norse Pagan" as you insinuated some posts back. I am a baptized Catholic (which according to BJU and John Ashcroft makes me a member of a 'papist cult' who is bound straight for Hell). I can address the issue of George Bush's purported Christianity. As was eloquently stated by JS, I am required to speak out against George Bush on this matter because by his actions he is defaming the Name of Christ.

He is not a Christian. If he was, he would have publicly stated that he wanted all the votes in Florida counted by the standards he signed into law in Texas. Then he would have said that he would have abided by whatever result came out of that count.

He didn't. He did everything he could to stop the counts going on in Florida.

This is not the action of a man committed to Christ.

This is the action of a power-hungry despot who would go to any length to grab power.

I am required to speak out against him on this matter, but in addition to that, I am required to pray for him. Only he can come to the Light and see the Truth. I and others on this thread can lead him to the Water of Life that is Jesus. We can't make him drink. If he does not repent of his ways, he will go to Hell and be eternally separated from God's love and acceptance.

He is not a Christian and only he can change that fact. However, if he doesn't change that fact before he dies, then he goes to Hell.

I'd rather prefer that he not take this country with him, thank you very much. 

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Nina Dee - 02:24 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #48 of 264
"Sir, you have to understand," Klain said. "This is Guatemala."

I don't normally answer these kinds of posts, but Brian. Bush LOST.

This will not be an argument after the heat of the moment passes. You can argue over ideology forever, over whose policies you prefer, but as to who got the most votes: that won't be in any doubt. Even ardent Nixon partisans no longer argue that Nixon ran a clean election! The history books will tell this story (if there are history books) and they will say that Gore won and that Florida's election was rigged and the Supreme Court decision was corrupt. Them's just the facts. 

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Tony Karp - 03:55 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #49 of 264
In the end, GW Bush was a uniter -- He united his enemies

I'm not an expert on religion, so maybe someone here can enlighten me.

What is the actual link between the belief of the Pro-Lifers ("Life begins at conception and ends at birth") and the teachings of Christ? 

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Franny Rose - 04:04 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #50 of 264
Democracy, quite simply, was poisoned to put George W Bush in the White House. -- UK Guardian, 12/14/00

I find the comments of Bush's close friends that they noticed no difference at the time of his supposed religious experience to be revealing.

I know about the religious orientation of all my friends, even ones that I rarely see. We have here a close friend who saw Bush every day saying that he noticed no difference.

Normally a person would tell a close friend about such an experience. And considering Bush's early life is hardly one of model citizen, changed behavior alone should have been evident.

Isn't there some comment from Bush after his early unsuccessful political effort in Texas (late 70's) where he says he'll never again be out-Jesused? I may be mixing stories. Does anyone remember? 

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(Deleted message originally posted by Verwirrung on 04:19 am PST - Jan 26, 2001)

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Verwirrung- 05:35 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #52 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Twelve hours of earthquakes, in India, Sumatra, the Philippines, Japan, Greece, and Ohio. Bush's minions are escaping to the surface... 

Tina Kramer - 05:44 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #53 of 264
Put Marvin Miller in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

It's been my experience that newly "re-born" Christians tend to be rather vocal and enthusiastic about it. The ones I knew couldn't stop talking about their new-found faith. 

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(Deleted message originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:08 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001)

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J Swadesh - 08:19 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #55 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

P Glass

Here we go, folks. My money confiscated by your friendly church, temple, mosque and Evangelical what-have-you...any idea the corruption we're in for here

Needless to say, now that her circumstances have improved, her rage at Mormons and Republicans is enormous.

"Faith-based charity" is a truly awful idea whose time is long past.

~~~~~

Mrs. Parker

The Fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness (meekness), goodness, patience, faithfulness, and self-control.

I shouldn't even get started on love. Capital punishment, 15 minutes spent reviewing condemned men's records for clemency, mocking Karla Faye Tucker, leaving his daughter alone after surgery...

It's time for George W. Bush to either profess his faith or deny it. Either he is a follower of the teachings of Christ and must consistently behave like one, making the required sacrifices and earning the sanctification bestowed on him by followers, OR he is not a follower of Jesus and may behave with all the pride, arrogance, greed, and lust for wealth and power his little "heart" desires and that he currently and openly pursues.

~~~~~~~~~~

Tony

What is the actual link between the belief of the Pro-Lifers ("Life begins at conception and ends at birth") and the teachings of Christ?

Pro-lifers have seized a small portion of that-- the life of the fetus-- and elevated it above all other values. Thus they do not care about babies once they are born-- the fact that they die of starvation or malaria or at the end of a hangman's rope is of utter indifference. They have no sense of the totality of what it means to love life.

I am pretty sure that Jesus would be appalled by the reimposition of the Mexico City Rules excluding federal funds for organizations which perform abortions, because He would see the totality of it. No federal dollars are used for abortions and those organizations' major functions are making contraception and family planning information available. The Mexico City Rules result in more abortions, because there is less contraception. And thus, in the name of Jesus, life is needlessly extinguished.

And George Bush, who claims to have been born again, has just sealed the doom of countless unborn lives.

Tina

It's been my experience that newly "re-born" Christians tend to be rather vocal and enthusiastic about it. The ones I knew couldn't stop talking about their new-found faith.

Kittey

Re born means no jail nor jailtime. Nothing more n

Aml Clymer - 11:10 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #56 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

An amusing post. Liberals have no moral or intellectual ground for commenting on whether Bush is a Christian or not. Nor, after these last 8 years, do they have any right to comment on morality in general.

Liberals commenting on God, religion and morality make about as much sense as Heinrich Himmler commenting on the finer points of the Talmud and Jewish tradition. 

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Abigail Quart - 11:19 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #57 of 264
"Tyranny begins when one power, one church, one party introduces itself into the private life of its citizens." - Jack Lang, former French minister of culture.

I've spread the Mormon essay as far as I can. I even got a response from a die-hard Southern conservative former classmate. It is a spectacular statement.

Thank you for finding it, Erik. 

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Marie Cook - 11:21 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #58 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

If God offers forgiveness to sinners how is it that those who believe in him can be condemned for the same.

Who is and should be the final arbitor of what is moral for yourself, your neighbor or yourself? 

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Aml Clymer - 11:32 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #59 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

Hearing Democrats quote scripture is like watching a dog try to climb a tree. Funny and pathetic at the same time.

At least it is not as bad now as when, during impeachment, they quoted scripture, the Federalist Papers and spoke of the "original intent" of our Constitution.

That was so bizarre I had fears that mass psychosis of the left was a sign. A sign, perhaps, of the final days, of the apocalypse. 

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Marie Cook - 11:37 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #60 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Aml

Quoting scripture is easy. Living it is what is hard. The thing is if one believes the scriptures one does not steal elections nor approve of elections being stolen. 

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Mrs. Parker - 01:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #61 of 264

Didn't he continue to cat around at night, coming home to his wife and daughters stinking drunk, for several years after this reported conversion?

I guess he missed the part about putting aside worldly pursuits. 

Tony Karp - 02:58 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #62 of 264
In the end, GW Bush was a uniter -- He united his enemies

J Swadesh - 08:19 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001 - #55 of 60

Thanks to GW Bush, this will now extend into the law and into presidential actions:

Boston Globe <http://www.globe.com/dailyglobe2/026/oped/Bush_s_cruel_trip_backward+.shtml>

Bush said, ''It is my conviction that taxpayer funds should not be used to pay for abortions or advocate or actively promote abortion either here or abroad.'' His decision will defeat his own political purpose. Family planning research groups, such as the Alan Guttmacher Institute, last year said that if US funding levels were restored to the $540 million, the following would happen:

Nearly 12 million more couples in developing countries would gain access to modern methods of contraception.

There would be 4.3 million fewer unintended pregnancies, 1.5 million fewer unintended births, 500,000 fewer miscarriages, and 2.2 million fewer abortions each year.

There would be 8,000 fewer deaths from unsafe abortions, 7,000 fewer deaths from other causes related to pregnancy and 92,000 fewer deaths of infants.

Also discouraging is President Bush's immediate, in-your-face use of two of the country's most divisive issues.

He has imposed a gag rule on women's health centers abroad that receive any foreign aid from us. If a women's clinic that does not do abortions but that so much as counsels women on abortions that are medically necessary ("If you do not end this tubal pregnancy, you will die"), the United States government will cut off funds to the clinic.

This means that untold numbers of women in poor countries will not get prenatal care, birth control and other desperately needed treatment. For heaven's sakes, why punish them? They didn't even vote for Al Gore.

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Tony Karp - 03:18 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #63 of 264
In the end, GW Bush was a uniter -- He united his enemies

Less than one week old, and the Bush "presidency" is starting to get a little scary.

If presidencies were seasons, I'd say we're at the beginning of a really tough winter. 

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k l epperly - 04:56 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #64 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

I stay away a couple of days, and all the haters come out to play!

This thread should be downloaded for future reference.

Just leftie bigots who think they have a "pass" for hating Christians--but everyone is watching, and when the commotion dies down Ashcroft will be in office and the haters will just be fulminating failures.

The Ashcroft nom will go down as anti-Christian McCarthyism. 

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Thomas Moreton - 05:04 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #65 of 264
Ongoing protest: Phone the White House, 202-456-1414; ask for President Gore!

More than a few Christians have been phony hypocrites using religion for political/power purposes over the centuries. Why should it be any different now? 

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k l epperly - 05:07 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #66 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

and HOW you hate them, right? 

Marie Cook - 05:08 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #67 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Pity, pity would be the appropriate word. 

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k l epperly - 05:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #68 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

You have a funny way of defining "hate"--but this is the post-Clinton, deconstructed America. Beware of calling evil, good. Your distaste for Pentacostals is what's guiding you, not charity.

Just as Ashcroft won't have to endure the bigotry of Kennedy and Leahy forever. The procedural gambits are running out, and the Dems are starting to look worse and worse. 

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Marie Cook - 05:48 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #69 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Only to fanatical Republicans who have too much hate in their hearts to have room for God. 

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k l epperly - 05:51 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #70 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

Careful, that in your passion, you don't nudge your fellow Christian-haters out into the light of day. Could prove embarrassing. 

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Julie St. John - 06:00 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #71 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

I don't hate Christians. I hate bigots. It seems that some self-proclaimed Christians feel that their religion gives them a license to impose their values on others. Tell me, Aml or KL, what do you think of my self-proclaimed Christian cousin's belief that this is a Christian nation and that it doesn't matter if the Constitution is overthrown as long as there is a "Christian" back in the White House? 

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Marie Cook - 06:01 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #72 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

My fellow Christian haters? I do not hate Christians. I do not even hate pseudo Christians. I figure their God can deal with them better than I if he thinks they are worth the trouble.

I do not understand religion that is based on hate and hate is not what I get from your Bible. That is why I have such difficulty understanding people who trade their souls for power and money and take on the role of seeking vengence in the name of God. 

Verwirrung- 06:02 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #73 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

"How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?" -- Dr. Pat Robertson, apparently describing his vision of the coming Bush II administration

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Buzzerman- 06:05 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #74 of 264
Sandra Day O'Connor and O.J. Simpson -- the ultimate golf twosome

I thought Christians disapproved of liars, but maybe they made an exception for Ashcroft, I don't know.

In a narrow sense, Bush *is* a Christian. His actions and statements *do* follow the narrow Calvinist model of Christianity -- a presumption that one's moral fiber is directly proportional to one's material wealth; a respect for life that begins at conception and ends at birth; a reverence for worldly kingdoms and power; a belief that salvation can be attained by faith alone, with good works irrelevant.

To Calvinists, and other legalistic churches like Reconstructionists (Pat Robertson's fiefdom), the idea of a Church of Love is a threat to their agendas. So just like the Pharisees were also Jews, Bush and his henchmen are also Christians... 

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k l epperly - 06:06 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #75 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

I can tell what YOU think of your cousin. 

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Julie St. John - 06:11 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #76 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Is that the best you can do, KL? Do you truly have no problem with his belief? And what do I think of my cousin since you're so perceptive? 

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k l epperly - 06:14 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #77 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

So silly. I don't even know if your cousin exists...why would I engage you in a conversation about a conversation?

Talk about what YOU believe, and I'd be interested. 

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Julie St. John - 06:22 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #78 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

I don't believe that it's okay to trash the Constitution in order to have a "Christian" back in office. Do you agree with me or disagree? 

Marie Cook - 06:25 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #79 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

A Christian would not trash the Constitution. a Christian would not prevent the counting of votes. A Christian would not accept the USSC giving them the election. A Christian would not support Bush being President. There is so much that a Christian would not do that a Republican seems comfortable doing. 

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k l epperly - 06:30 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #80 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

Hm. Sinjin--You took "Deconstructionist Logic 101," didn't you?

I guessed from how you asked that question.

Humbly, I'd like to remind you that I'm from a different era of Western Civilization. A dinosaur, I'm afraid, so we'll have to take your question and break it down into the underlying premises and assumptions.

First of all, you say a Christian is "back in office," which implies that there weren't Christians there before. Agree or disagree?

Second, I dispute any Constitution-bashing is going on. Please specify exactly how the document sacred to so many American Christians is being bashed. Hint: nowhere in the Constitution is a Christian precluded from serving high office, however Schumer might not like the prospect.

After you describe how the bashing is happening, we'll find out if I disagree with it or not.

I know this process is straining to the New Left from the New Universities, but please bear with me. 

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Caitlin Griswold - 06:36 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #81 of 264
Lost her job at the M & M factory, supervisor caught her tossing out all the little "Dubyas"

There is so much that a Christian would not do that a Republican seems comfortable doing.

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Verwirrung- 06:38 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #82 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

"Killing for the joy of it is wrong, but killing because it is necessary to fight against an anti-Christ system ... is not only right, but the duty of every Christian." -- Paralife Ministries newsletter

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Marie Cook - 06:38 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #83 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Must have been the early ancestors of Republicans, not true Christians. 

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Caitlin Griswold - 06:40 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #84 of 264
Lost her job at the M & M factory, supervisor caught her tossing out all the little "Dubyas"

Actually the slogan I heard, "There was only one true Christian and he died on the cross." I guess that explains the rest. 

Julie St. John - 06:48 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #85 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Hey, Klep, apparently you missed your reading comprehension classes. But I see you've learned how to spin and twist well. Let's go back to what I really said and I'll attempt to clarify it for you.

My self-proclaimed Christian cousin said that he found trashing the Constitution acceptable as long as it resulted in putting a "Christian" back in office. His argument is that Clinton was not a Christian despite is profession of such belief and his regular attendance at Church. Thus his use of the phrase "back in office".

"Trashing the Constitution" would be shorthand for a Supreme Court that stopped the counting of legitimate votes in order to proclaim a particular candidate the winner.

Whether or not you agree that this is trashing the Constitution, my cousin did, and said that it was okay because it resulted in a "Christian" being back in office.

You claim to be a Christian, Klep, don't you? Do you agree with my cousin that America would be better off as a theocracy? 

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k l epperly - 07:00 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #86 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

I told you I wasn't much interested in rehashing a conversation you had with a cousin, a conversation I wasn't part of. It's second hand, and exists here only in YOUR memory. If your issue is your cousin, talk to your cousin.

You know, school just does not prepare children these days to construct a coherent argument . I suppose they impart some sort of currency to personal expressions of distaste...

1> Lose your cousin, and describe the nature of the "bashing" in terms apart from your dislike of your relative. 

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Julie St. John - 07:07 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #87 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Please point out the post in which I used the term "bashing" if you want to be so particular Ms. Klep.

I believe I defined the trashing of the Constitution adequately in my previous post, in a way that did not depend on my cousin at all. Let me rephrase my final question from my previous post in a way that excludes the use of the word "cousin" as you seem to have some kind of hang-up about that word: Do you believe that America would be better off as a theocracy?

I ask this because I have heard other self-proclaimed Christians aver this, whether you like it or not. It's quite clear to me that not all Christians feel this way, but I'd like to know what you think, Ms. Klep. Do you suppose you can answer a simple yes-or-no question or will I be treated to more evasions? 

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Chris George - 07:13 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #88 of 264
"It ain't over 'till the last dog dies.".....Bill Clinton

Remember the link we had to the Baptist Press? (I can't get it to link now) "Evangelicals unaware inaugural event was sponsored by Unification leader". Tells about the 1,400 Evangelical and Fundamentalist preachers who walked into what they thought was to honor Billy Graham, and Moon himself turned out to be the host. The article sounds as if the man writing it was trying to make amends for some outrage expressed by some of his followers. His "Oh, we had no idea" baloney must not have sold well with some of his sheep.

I have found this article to be a powerful tool in opening a dialog with my beloved fundies who happen to be leaders in a large church in this area. They are very, very, very disturbed and intend to pass it along to some other people in the church.

Prior to this, nothing I said made any difference in their thinking. I have been trying to tell them for a couple of years that Bush is NOT a Christian. I'm also questioning them about the son of Billy Graham, Franklin, who opened the inauguration with a ringing prayer about wealth and honor coming from God! (To hell with the poor people).

This is the first time they have listened to me, and it was that article. Send it to everyone you know in the religious community. Make copies and pass them out. It works. 

kittey morgan - 07:16 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #89 of 264

Reborn Conservative means no jail time. You are washed of all crimes and sins, with all absolved and forgotten. It's used frequently by people who find themselves in dire straits and used flagrantly. I would assume GWB has used this more than once and/or made sure it was available. GWB is NO born again, never has been and never will be. It is used as a tool for escaping punishment and political purposes. I find all of this religion RW and otherwise quite amusing. Especially when used for convenience. Seems to be the par these days..Shades of Jim and Tammy Baker but what can one expect out of con artists and the little red map. 

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Julie St. John - 07:16 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #90 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

I remember that article and that is a good idea. I attempted to convey my doubts about Shrub's convictions to my cousin but he chose, at that point, to end the dialog and pray for me. If anyone can provide that link I would like to pass it along. 

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Verwirrung- 07:19 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #91 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Remember the link we had to the Baptist Press? "Evangelicals unaware inaugural event was sponsored by Unification leader".(I can't get it to link now)

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paul lukasiak - 07:27 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #92 of 264
You've got a heritage of defending German patriots like Karl Donitz, Ernst Rommel, & Adolf Hitler...We've got to stand up, or we'll be taught these people were giving their lives and their honor to some perverted agenda--Johann Askroftt

Fascinating...

shrub used his (proclaimed) status of being 'born again' to garner votes from other 'born agains' much in the same way that Joe Lieberman used his (proclaimed) status of being a practicing Conservative Jew to garner votes from other Jews.

And when we examine the actions of both men within the context of their claims, what we find is voluminous supporting evidence and scant contradictory evidence that Lieberman was telling the truth.

Ane we find vitually no supporting evidence, and voluminous contradictory evidence, that shrub lied about his conversion.

and of course, when the latter information is pointed out, the freepers go into mega-hissyfit mode.

The words "born again" and "Christian" are rendered meaningless when someone like shrub uses them to describe himself.

Being 'born again' is not the same as deciding to go to church once a week. It is literally a REBIRTH--an experience as transforming of the circumstances of ones life that the only comparison that can be made is to the the experience of leaving the womb itself, and entering the world.

John Ashcroft is an excellent example of a born again Christian The fact that he is also a racist, homophobic liar is irrelevant--ashcroft is human, and subject to human frailty. The issue is not theology, it is phenomenology---can someone be reborn and NOT have it be obvious to those around one? Perhaps that is possible if someone had lived their lives in the 'path of righteousness' before actually experiencing "rebirth", but shrub does not fall into that category.

Ashcroft ACTS like someone who has experienced a profoundly life-transforming event. I think that the test of whether or not someone is genuinely "born again" is whether or not they act like someone who claims to have been abducted by aliens. Some folks never get over the experience of rebirth or alien abduction. Most, after an initial shock, manage to incorporate it into their daily lives--but only after making it clear to those around them that something profound HAS happened to them.

And I'd believe that shrub was abducted by aliens long before I'd believe he ever actually was "born again". 

Julie St. John - 07:29 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #93 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Thanks, Verwirrung, I've sent it off to him and a couple others. 

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Verwirrung- 07:35 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #94 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Being 'born again' is not the same as deciding to go to church once a week. It is literally a REBIRTH--an experience as transforming of the circumstances of ones life that the only comparison that can be made is to the the experience of leaving the womb itself, and entering the world.

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kittey morgan - 07:35 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #95 of 264

Bush is still complaining about the indignities he suffered at the hands of these Birchers, with whom he was straining to have as much as possible in common. But he met with repeated frustration, because his Eastern Liberal Establishment pedigree was always there. In his campaign autobiography, Bush laments that many Texans thought that "Redbook Magazine," published by his father-in-law, Marvin Pierce of the McCall Corporation, was an official publication of the Communist Party. " Bab's daddy no less." What fakes!!!!!!!! 

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Julie St. John - 07:40 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #96 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

So, did anyone else notice that in response to my simple question there was nothing substantive offered by Klep and nothing at all offered by Aml? 

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Verwirrung- 07:42 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #97 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

They don't like direct questions about their leaders' moral fibre. I'm still waiting to hear what they have to say about Poppy Bush's $20 billion federal land giveaway to his Canadian employer. 

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Julie St. John - 07:43 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #98 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Don't hold your breath. 

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Verwirrung- 07:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #99 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

(Gasps for air) Thanks, Julie! 

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Buzzerman- 07:48 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #100 of 264
Sandra Day O'Connor and O.J. Simpson -- the ultimate golf twosome

Verwirrung -- your tagline is inaccurate. Have you forgotten the DUI's? :-) 

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(Deleted message originally posted by kittey morgan on 07:58 am PST - Jan 27, 2001)

Verwirrung - 08:00am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#102 of 264)
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Thanks Kittey...I guess the narcotics trade is just bred into them... "Leading America into the 19th Century"

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Elaine Supkis - 08:08am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#103 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Thank you, Kittey, your history lessons of our ruling class are great reading.

Drug dealing and the ruling class...wonder if anyone is going to write a book about that subject.

They make money dealing drugs. And then make it illegal and make money stopping others from dealing drugs. Think about the history of tobacco and America. Addictions.

They need addictions just like they love cartels and monopolies. Anything to get richer and more powerful.

One tool they have been using lately, though, to disguise themselves, is to pretend to be servants. This is why the Bushes have foul personal habits, talk mushy (grind teeth) and act like trailer trash. To fool the servants and the gaping public at large.

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(Deleted item originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:09am Jan 27, 2001 PST)

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Elaine Supkis - 08:09am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#105 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

PS, Bush and Cheney and Greenspan etc, they are all witches who practice black magic and laugh at the born again dupes who are too dimwitted to realize this.

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kittey morgan - 08:10am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#106 of 264)

About time some people see the light.

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Elaine Supkis - 08:12am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#107 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Ah, Kittey, thanks for reminding us about the beggars. The Bushes love beggars.

They also love wrecking economic wealth.

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(Deleted item originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:17am Jan 27, 2001 PST)

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kittey morgan - 08:17am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#109 of 264)

Any of this sound familiar today????? LMAO

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Elaine Supkis - 08:21am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#110 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

So...he belonged to the DKE but wasn't in the frat house.

HE DID USE THE TOMB. And this is the Key. He was central to the rituals. And I am beginning to suspect that not all DKEers were party to the top ritual, the naming ritual, the one where the skulls and the book and the sword and the crown and the fool's cap is involved.

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(Deleted item originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:22am Jan 27, 2001 PST)

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kittey morgan - 08:23am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#112 of 264)

To be continued if wished and also on another place.

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Elaine Supkis - 08:25am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#113 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

It is unique in one major respect: they have successfully used black magic to gain power at the skull and bones via Geronimo's skull.

Insane, eh? But very real.

Elaine Supkis - 08:28 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #114 of 264
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Kittey, do this thread at Online Journal.

It is the key, you know. Ultimately, the key to everything.

They are not for the British Empire. Think Holy Roman Empire. Even the British royals are HOLY ROMAN EMPERORS. My specialty is 1100-1300 AD. Very interesting time period. The Crusades, the Knights Templar, the struggle for power between Church and State and other religions...Mongols, the whole kit and kaboodle. 

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winston barclay - 08:42 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #115 of 264
I could do better if I tried. Really.

W is a sort of Christian. Unfortunately, there are a whole bunch like him, and they think they should have to power to define what Xianity is for everyone, turn their peculiar obsessions into laws, and prepare for Armageddon. They now how one of their own in a position to make it happen. 

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Verwirrung- 08:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #116 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

And the Reverend Moon personally crowned God as King of All Creation one week before the inauguration.

The Coronation of God Ceremony

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Brian Sponsler - 08:46 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #117 of 264

J Swadesh, thank you for your post explaining where you believe I lied.

You identified my "lies" as these:

"The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching " is a lie, since I am not ... "bitching".

Obviously, the use of this slang expression for "complaining" bothers you. But you were complaining - I stand by that description. This accusation is incorrect, as well as utterly trivial.

You also have made the lying implication that I have invented something by continuing to use the phrasing "he claims". But facts have been presented. Facts that you refuse to address....

I don't address the facts you claim because I am willing, for the sake of the argument, to concede them. I accurately described them as your claims. I just don't give a fig about who he told when. Wasn't that clear?

It is even a lie to claim that "So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act," since I have never made such a claim.

This is quite disinginous of you. Your consistent claim was and is that Bush does not behave as a Christian would. Obviously knowledege of how a Christian would act is necessary to make that conclusion.

Not content with leading W's auto de fe you attack me, criticizing me for describing your position as "idiotic", "pathetic", and for my baiting of Bloodaxe. However, "idiotic" and "pathetic" accurately describes your position, there is no theological reason not to use these perfectly good words. As for my needling of Bloodaxe, no reasonable reader could have read it as anything else. Did I get the part about the SCA right, Eric? 

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Brian Sponsler - 08:54 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #118 of 264

There also seems to be some confusion among the secularist here that slang expressions, especially vulgar slang expressions ("asshole", for example) are prohibited to Christians. This idea must have come from your 3rd grade Sunday School teacher - maybe the last time you were in Church.

Then there is quite a bit of Temperance Union propaganda creeping in - seeming to hold, against all evidence - that Christians are required to abstain from alcoholic beverages. One is reminded of C.S. Lewis' statement that few things annoyed him as much as a Temperance meeting gathering and declaring itself to be a church. 

Franny Rose - 11:19 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #119 of 264
Democracy, quite simply, was poisoned to put George W Bush in the White House. -- UK Guardian, 12/14/00

Chris, Maybe you can find a way to let your fundies know about the Falwell-Moon connection. Here's one link that mentions it, but I'm sure you can google up others. <http://www.watch.pair.com/heritage.html>

Actually, I believe Moon was instrumental in the founding of the original Moral Majority.

I've also read about a substantial ($500k) gift from Moon to Tim LaHaye, but I don't have any URLs at hand. That might be worth a google, too. 

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The Sebastian Cat - 11:36 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #120 of 264
I'm not the president but I play one in texas.

Aml,

Re: Post #17

The courts said O.J. was inoccent.

By the way, they also say the chimp is the potus! 

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J Swadesh - 11:39 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #121 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

But you were complaining - I stand by that description.

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J Swadesh - 11:40 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #122 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Paul

John Ashcroft is an excellent example of a born again Christian The fact that he is also a racist, homophobic liar is irrelevant--ashcroft is human, and subject to human frailty. The issue is not theology, it is phenomenology---can someone be reborn and NOT have it be obvious to those around one?

"The answers are surprisingly unresponsive and often are inconsistent with the hearing record and with Sen. Ashcroft's own record. They are 'answers' in the sense that there is text after the question marks, but they are not answers to the point of being responsive. ... The refusal to provide substantive answers is another factor that senators will have to take into account in deciding how they will vote. I will say that if President Clinton or a Clinton nominee had provided these answers, some Republicans would be calling for impeachment or a subpoena." <http://www.roevbush.com/leahystatement.html>

I have found more evidence that argues against Bush having been born again: his own description. He describes his "re-birth" as a seed being planted. This is not consistent with the description in the gospel of John. I think this is an important line of examination. 

J Swadesh - 11:41 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #123 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Tony

I have always been fascinated that Christianity, which you would think would be the gentlest of religions, is actually the most agressive in forcing their beliefs on others.

The borders of early Christianity generally coincided with those of the Roman empire. Equipped with the best road system, the greatest technology and an imperialist nation, Christianity adopted the characteristics of the system it adopted-- good and bad. Yet it also transformed that system into one much gentler than the Roman system had been, and was itself gradually transformed by nations that joined or were added to the overall.

The United States, with its peculiar emphasis on salesmanship, expansionism and exceptionalism had its own transforming effect. The American ideal is growth without plan or pruning, and that makes for a Christianity in which untutored beliefs and dubious claims of religious experience (like Shrub's "re-birth") are taken without even a grain of salt. The toxic mixture of politics and religion that has emerged with the Ashcroft nomination is a reflection of this kind of Christianity.

Kittey

Reborn Conservative means no jail time. You are washed of all crimes and sins, with all absolved and forgotten.

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winston barclay - 12:25 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #124 of 264
I could do better if I tried. Really.

Xianity is also both a religion of cosmic dualism, and one with a belief that they are required to become missionaries. So they are set up by both theology and MO to be an aggressive force that sees all who disagree as agents of the dark side. 

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J Swadesh - 12:39 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #125 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Paul, following up on the "re-birth" experience....

Here is a brief excerpt from Bush's statement about the day he became "born again":

He [Billy Graham] sat by the fire and talked. And what he said sparked a change in my heart. I don't remember the exact words. It was more the power of his example. The Lord was so clearly reflected in his gentle and loving demeanor. The next day, we walked and talked at Walker's Point ... Graham planted a mustard seed in my soul ... he led me to the path, and I began walking. And it was the beginning of a change in my life. I had always been a religious person, had regularly attended church, even taught Sunday school and served as an altar boy. But that weekend my faith took on a new meaning. It was the beginning of a new walk where I would recommit my heart to Jesus Christ.

Jake Tapper comments on Bush's "re-birth"

Bush didn't exactly become the exemplar of Christian piety at that very moment. At a Dallas restaurant in April 1986, according to "First Son," the Bush biography by Dallas Morning News reporter Bill Minutaglio, he spotted columnist Al Hunt of the Wall Street Journal, who had recently predicted that Jack Kemp, and not then-Vice President George Bush, would be the 1988 GOP presidential nominee. George W. Bush, clearly sloshed, according to Hunt, approached the columnist and, in front of Hunt's young son, called him a "no-good fucking sonovabitch."

Verwirrung- 12:47 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #126 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

All this stuff about hypnotic fireside chats and planting a seed makes it sound like Billy Graham practices Tantric sex magick... 

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J Swadesh - 02:05 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #127 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Aw, c'mon, Verwirrung. Billy Graham is a decent man. Old, and no longer as discerning as he might have been.

All that the confusion on this issue speaks to is the decay of the church and the American idea that everything is supposed to be easy.

The quote from John 3 makes it clear that rebirth is an earthshaking experience, a profoundly disorienting experience, an experience in which the boundaries between self and non-self vanish and one sees the world from the perspective of the heavenly Kingdom. An experience so profound that it actually makes one want to do the right thing.

George Bush doesn't use that language to describe his experience. He uses the language of seed-planting. And therefore, based on his behavior, we can probably guess that whatever seed got planted died.

Now he's fallen to stealing elections. 

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Davis X. Machina - 02:13 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #128 of 264
Sen. Gene McCarthy on moderate Republicans, "They’re the ones who when seeing a man drowning fifteen feet off shore will toss him a ten foot rope, and say that they have gone more than half way."

It seems to me that although Palestine in the reign of the emperor Tiberius or Gaius or Claudius wasn't known for its free and fair elections, the admonition "You will know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:16) is just the Evangelist's way of saying "Vote the candidate's record, not the candidate's personality".

• When I see fewer of my fellows ill-housed, ill-clothed, or ill-fed
• When I see fewer of my fellows sick
• When I see fewer of my fellows hated and persecuted
• When I see fewer of my fellows in jails and prisons
• When I see fewer of my fellows in lonliness and despair

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 02:15 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #129 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

The header seems to have gotten messed up in the software upgrade. So I'll repost the links here:

My essay on Bush

What a Mormon thinks of how W "won" the White House

What another writer thinks of W' supposed Christianity

Bush supporters, step forward and defend your man.

Is he or is he not a Christian?

Your silence speaks volumes. 

J Swadesh - 02:32 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #130 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Eric

<from <http://www.mosquitonet.com/~letterman/bush.htm>I make no special claim to virtue or to godliness. I try to follow the example set by Jesus Christ as best I can. I am not perfect; not one of us is, but I believe in Jesus Christ and He is my Lord. I accept that George W. Bush is also a child of God. It is not my place or purpose here to judge him, but only to present the evidence I believe shows he is not who he claims to be. God will judge Bush’s life and my own. Only God can judge him and only he can repent for his misdeeds.

Bush supporters, step forward and defend your man. Is he or is he not a Christian? Your silence speaks volumes.

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ed scarbrough - 02:41 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #131 of 264
His Fraudulencey recapitulates the Plutocracy

Eric, can you edit the header? I'm getting script errors every time I load the page. 

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 03:11 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #132 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

ed,

I can't edit the header myself. emailed the TT people to do so for me. hopefully will be done on Monday. 

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Jo Ann Simon - 03:19 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #133 of 264

George W is a phony (political) Christian just as most of the televised holy rollers are. They defy the teachings of Jesus at every turn. Jesus preached forgiveness of your enemies--they don't know what the word means unless it's one of their own who needs it. It was the Old Testament wherein vengence was preached--I never read about Jesus upholding the death penalty. If I remember, it was Jesus who said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Jesus certainly never preached that greed and a quest for wealth equalled godliness, and he certainly never preached that we should deprive the poor in order to secure our own wealth.

These Republican evangelicals out there are no more than a bunch of self-delusional hypocrits, who are an insult to the man they praise as their saviour.

They keep bringing up the saying, "What Would Jesus Do?" Well, I can tell them: He'd smite them and cry that they have so diabused his name and calling.

I was raised in a quasi-fundamentalist church, even though my parents weren't in any way fundamentalist. By the age of 16, I'd bolted from the church, and by 20 I'd become an atheist. I still am. I've seen both sides, and these so-called 'children of Christ' are a bunch of self-interested hypocrits. May they burn in the hell that they created. (That's not an insult, since I don't believe in either heaven or hell--creations designed for religious entrapment of the multitude.)

Gotta get off. My husband is waiting for his slotted time on the computer by previous agreement. 

Piotr Berman - 03:43 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #134 of 264
Brilliant Left: let them abolish Roe vs Wade and then ride the backlash. Brilliant Right: bring the recession now, and then ride the recovery.

I do not understand the premise here, or to the extend I do, I do not like it. The premise is that Bush is not a nice person -- he is callous, lacks empathy, lies -- so he is not a Christian.

I think that being a Christian, or born-again Christian, has no relashonship with being nice, honest etc. There are mean Christians, and mean non-Christians, and very nice Christians, etc.

For example, Bush seems to have no empathy whatsoever. He joked about a person on HIS death row "please do not kill me". He failed to visit his daugher after an operation. Hm, I know that apendictonomy is a very minor operation, and I have seen how miserable one is afterwards. There was a story that Bush did not know about Cheney's heart attack until he talked with reporters. Probably he heard about it, but did not care.

Problem is, this is his temperament and character. Why they should change after "spiritual convertion"? Remember, the question is not if Bush is Christ, but Christian.

Another argument was that Bush had "stealing the election". Well, probably he does not believe it. And if he invoke the Lord name in vain umpteenth number of times in his inaguration speech, he just will not see it as a problem, nor most of his fellow Christians. 

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Verwirrung- 04:30 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #135 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

It would be pretty cool if Jesus made a visit to Washington right now. 

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kittey morgan - 04:34 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #136 of 264

Ah ustah be ah dimcrat, bit nao ahm ah christen. A caller on one of the early A.M. call in shows. LMAO......I listen just to hear this nonsense everyday it is hilarious..... 

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Buzzerman- 04:37 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #137 of 264
Sandra Day O'Connor and O.J. Simpson -- the ultimate golf twosome

Piotr, I agree that personality is not the same as moral fiber. There's a difference between being a nice guy and being a good person.

But honesty (unlike, say, congeniality) IS a moral virtue. And while a true born-again Christian may or may not be a pleasant person to be around, he most certainly is not a chronic liar. We're all human and we all sin; however, true Christians at least recognize these transgressions and strive to avoid them.

I see little evidence this is the case with Bush. 

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Brian Sponsler - 04:38 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #138 of 264

Not only were you complaining, Swadesh, but now you are lying about it.

What a baby you must be. Do you normally call people who disagree with you "liars"? Has it ever occured to you that people can judge you - a major league asshole - by your actions as well? 

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Elaine Supkis - 04:48 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #139 of 264
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Brian, please do not call anyone a "baby". You are trying desperately to provoke a flame war here on this useful thread.

Thank you, Erik Bloodaxe, for this place. Well edited. 

J Swadesh - 04:49 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #140 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Piotr

The premise is that Bush is not a nice person -- he is callous, lacks empathy, lies -- so he is not a Christian.

I think that being a Christian, or born-again Christian, has no relashonship with being nice, honest etc. There are mean Christians, and mean non-Christians, and very nice Christians, etc.

That's what the basic question is. It is a given that Satan himself could join a church. And, when I look at Falwell's record, I sometimes think he has.

~~~~~~

Sponsler, you have been consistently off-topic.

I take it that means you can't think of a single reason to claim that George Bush is a Christian and are therefore reduced to posting drivel. 

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Elaine Supkis - 04:51 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #141 of 264
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

(sound of clapping for Swadesh) 

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Brian Sponsler - 04:53 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #142 of 264

Flaming is all Swadesh has.

Perhaps you'd like to comment on the usefulness or advisability of speculating on the degree of an individual's religious conviction, Elaine. 

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Elaine Supkis - 04:56 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #143 of 264
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Do not call thy neighbor names and thy neighbor wilt not call thee names and turn the other cheek and I speaketh not of the tuchus cheek but the one one thine face. Amen 

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Brian Sponsler - 05:07 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #144 of 264

Bush's opinion on capital punishment is quite consistent with over 1900 years of orthodox Christian doctrine, btw. <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm>

... capital punishment is not contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, and the power of the State to visit upon culprits the penalty of death derives much authority from revelation and from the writings of theologians.

And, of course, Jesus did not desire or seek secular power, so one could accuse any politician of "not emulating Jesus". I remember Him granting salvation to a thief on a cross, I don't remember Him talking about how an arrest record prevents one from being saved by Him. I know that He washed his disciples' feet, I don't remember Him washing their mouths out with soap. He turned water into wine four days into a non-stop party, but I don't remember Him commanding people not to drink it.

Maybe in your parallel universe, Swadesh. 

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Verwirrung- 05:24 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #145 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Unfortunately for those with a sense of history, Pope John Paul II has declared the Catholic Church as being opposed to capital punishment. 

Brian Sponsler - 05:31 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #146 of 264

The pope has not said what you claim he has:

The statement actually is:

"If bloodless means are sufficient to defend human lives against an aggressor and to protect public order and the safety of persons, public authority must limit itself to such means..."

Few reasonable people would disagree with this statement. The point of argument is over what represents "sufficient" protection of the public order and the safety of persons. At any rate, whatever the focus of the current pontiff, the orthodoxy of Capital punishment stands. 

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Aml Clymer - 06:04 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #147 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

Nice rants from those on the left.

Nothing more amusing than to read what Jew haters, Christian haters, haters of all religion have to say. 

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Verwirrung- 06:06 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #148 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Hey Aml, did you get any of that $20 billion Bush Sr. and his Canadian boss stole from the American people in 1992?

Or maybe Dubya has promised you a wife in the next Unification Church marriage ceremony? 

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Robert M. Jeffers - 06:10 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #149 of 264
"The winners are at war with the losers, and the fix is in. The prospects for peace are awful."--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., reporting on the 1972 Republican National Convention. Plus ce la change....

Nothing more amusing than to read what Jew haters, Christian haters, haters of all religion have to say.

If you question Bush's Christian convictions, you're a "hater" of all religions?

Seems like quite a jump, to me. 

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J Swadesh - 06:27 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #150 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Verwirrung

Unfortunately for those with a sense of history, Pope John Paul II has declared the Catholic Church as being opposed to capital punishment.

We believe that in the conditions of contemporary American society, the legitimate purposes of punishment do not justify the imposition of the death penalty. Furthermore, we believe that there are serious considerations which should prompt Christians and all Americans to support the abolition of capital punishment. Some of these reasons have to do with evils that are present in the practice of capital punishment itself, while others involve important values that would be promoted by abolition of this practice.

A Christian who delights in putting another to death?

No. A "Christian". A fake. 

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J Swadesh - 06:29 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #151 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Welcome back, Robert. :-) 

Verwirrung- 06:35 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #152 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

It's not like we should expect Bush to adhere to Catholic philosophy, in any event. Look at the sharp sectarian distinctions south of the border--Catholic priests actually going against written orders in attempting to help build democratic movements, while Evangelicals were building housing complexes where displaced villagers were lorded over by death squads. We all know where Dubya's sympathies lie... 

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J Swadesh - 06:46 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #153 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Ah, yes, the Unification Church! Another good sign that the entire Bush family is not exactly keen on Christianity! Because of course, "Reverend" Moon has declared himself the successor to Jesus. A Christian would be repelled by such a claim. But not the Bushes:

>On Nov. 23, 1996, Bush walked to the podium at the Sheraton Hotel in Buenos Aires and delivered a speech to 900 guests invited by Moon to celebrate the opening of his regional daily paper, Tiempos del Mundo. As Moon beamed a few feet away, Bush lauded his host. "I want to salute Rev. Moon, who is the founder of The Washington Times and also of Tiempos del Mundo," Bush said. He praised the Washington newspaper for fostering "sanity" -- and added that Moon's new paper in Argentina "is going to do the same thing."

Bush's lucrative courtship of Moon may help the ex-president to lay groundwork for his son George W. Bush, the current governor of Texas, who is expected to run for the next Republican presidential nomination. "A silent testimony to Moon's clout," Parry writes, "is the fact that his vast spending of billions of dollars in secretive Asian money to influence U.S. politics -- spanning nearly a quarter-century -- has gone virtually unmentioned amid the current controversy over Asian donations to U.S. politicians."

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J Swadesh - 06:51 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #154 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Verwirrung

It's not like we should expect Bush to adhere to Catholic philosophy, in any event.

I'm surprised they let him back into Texas. Or into Jeb's house.

No, of course he doesn't have to adhere to Catholic doctrine. But the Bishop's statement on the death penalty is pretty widely accepted.

It's really only a small sampling of churches plus of course the parachurches that still give credence to the "death penalty deters" argument. 

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JackieWebber- 06:56 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #155 of 264
Without the intervention of a partisan, right-wing Supreme Court to ensure the election of a Republican, Mr Bush would now be a forgotten loser. Guardian.co.uk

Christian sociopath, a gross contradiction. 

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Mrs. Parker - 07:17 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #156 of 264

Sponsler, I'm always struck by the bitterness in your posting style. What's that about? I thought William Bennett was the unhappiest man on the planet, but you're gaining on him. You oughter be happy now that Bush is installed. 

Brian Sponsler - 07:50 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #157 of 264

I'm happy with George. For threads with bitterness, Mrs. Parker, perhaps you should try "US(A) to Supremes - you stinking rotten fuckheads!" or "TELL NADER SUPPORTERS WHAT YOU THINK OF THEM FOR WHAT THEY DID", or "So which country will be going to war with first?" or "I'm sorry, what fuckin Democrat is going to fight this shit", or...

Maybe you should try this thread - where Swadesh and company are not content to disagree with a man's policies or beliefs, but insist that we conduct a Liberal Inquisition - apparently concerned that W might be a converso.

That's certainly an "and fuck the horse you rode in on, too" position that must be from bitterness. 

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J Swadesh - 07:57 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #158 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Mrs. Parker, the following should answer your question as to what the bitterness is about.

The right wing is starting to confess their crimes:

Volume 12, Issue 3. February 12, 2001.

The American Spectator

The Court Packs Itself

Bruce Ackerman

But this time, the president has not been independently elected. He is in the White House as a result of an unprincipled judicial decision that brought the electoral contest to a premature end. If such a president is allowed to fill the Court, he will be acting as an agent of the narrow right-wing majority that secured his victory in the first place.

...The right-wing bloc on the Court should not be permitted to extend its control for a decade or more simply because it has put George W. Bush into the White House.

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Brian Sponsler - 07:58 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #159 of 264

Even the US Bishops' statement you pasted, Swadesh, clearly states its relevance to this particular place and time - not to all places and all time.

Of course, God's eternal plan itself depended upon the application of the death penalty - hardly a support for your unsupportable claims of What Swadesh Thinks Jesus Would Do. - nice bracelet idea, though. 

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J Swadesh - 08:04 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #160 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian, at this point everyone is laughing at you.

You've failed to post anything on-topic. You've failed to derail the thread. You've failed to start a flame war.

You have succeeded in demonstrating some of the least Christ-like behavior that anyone is likely to witness in a dozen fortnights.

You have also succeeded in inspiring people to remember more and more wrongs that George W. Bush and his family has committed.

Maybe we could discuss George aWol's neo-confederate leanings next... 

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Brian Sponsler - 08:04 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #161 of 264

Anybody who thinks Swadesh's excerpt represents the editorial position of The American Spectator may now line up for bridge auctions and swampland sales. 

Erik the Bloodaxe - 08:56 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #162 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

I see that Sponslor, Aml, et al still haven't answered my challenge. Come on guys, surely you can cite at least one instance, one speech, anything George W. Bush has said or done since his claimed conversion to Christ that would reflect a commitment to the ideals and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Surely there must be something George W. Bush has said or done to indicate that he really is a Christian.

We're waiting. Come on. Step up to the mike.

Again, your silence speaks volumes. 

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J Swadesh - 09:03 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #163 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

George W. Bush, Confederate When George W. Bush was first elected, his campaign paid for an ad in the Vol. 3, 1996 issue of the Confederate Veteran, page 6, to congratulate the Sons of Confederate Veterans on their 100th anniversary. In the Dec. 1996 issue of the UDC Magazine, the official magazine of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, back outside cover, Bush has a full page ad congratulating the Texas Division UDC for their 100th anniversary. Lest this seems harmless, let me quote the famous Civil War historian James McPherson from a radio interview, Nov. 3, 1999: "I think, I agree a hundred percent with Ed Sebesta about the motives or the hidden agenda, not too, not too deeply hidden I think of such groups as the United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans. They are dedicated to celebrating the Confederacy and rather thinly veiled support for white supremacy. And I think that also is the again not very deeply hidden agenda of the Confederate flag issue in several southern states." 

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Patrick Bishop - 09:08 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #164 of 264
"Mejor los indios" -- Blood Meridian

Surely there must be something George W. Bush has said or done to indicate that he really is a Christian.

"It's going to be hard to explain. When you turn your heart and your life over to Christ, when you accept Christ as the Savior, it changes your heart. It changes your life. And that's what happened to me."

Campaign 2000: The God Factor

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jeannie r - 09:33 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #165 of 264

The kind of "christian" who smirks on national TV when he talks about how many guys he executed today. He will be whatever he needs to be to stay in the White House. He was whatever he needed to be to get in there. 

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Verwirrung- 09:37 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #166 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Maybe we're looking in the wrong direction?

Photo of George Bush embracing John Travolta and Church of Scientology International executive Karen Hollander

Michelle Miller - 09:50 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #167 of 264

I haven’t read all the posts so I apologize for that. It is strange to me when people in power say they believe in Jesus. If they really do believe in Jesus then they must know that Jesus did not care about them. He didn’t say, “Blessed are the wealthy”. Or “Blessed are the successful.” This was a man who said that if you have money and power on this earth, you were going to be at the bottom in the next world. I don’t understand why they keep evoking him. They are saying, “Yes, I know I am going to hell.” when they claim that they believe in Jesus. Does it make any sense to someone else? 

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Martin Heldt - 09:52 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #168 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

Thanks Joel.

That is an amazing piece to have come from the Spectator.

Justice Stevens is saying that the majority's decision to halt the Florida recount is a latantly partisan act, without any legal basis whatsoever. This harsh charge will be taken up in the nation's law reviews; perhaps someone will even produce an intellectually serious defense of the Court's decision. But at the moment,the silence of leading conservative academics is deafening.

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Scott Phillips - 10:05 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #169 of 264
George W. Bush - the Wizard of Duhs

If all of that 'Chri$tian' cash stopped flowing the GOP's way, the GOP (and Bush) would stop being 'Chri$tian' in the blink of a jaundiced eye. 

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kittey morgan - 10:14 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #170 of 264

A group of lawyers non denominational are raising hell with the Supreme Court. It has been written up in a couple of magazines. And they are also both Democrat and Republican so it's not a party or religious thing. It's about the LAW....LEGAL LAW...... 

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kittey morgan - 10:16 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #171 of 264

<http://www.consortiumnews.com/011501a.html> This is one of the articles....will look for the others. 

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Martin Heldt - 10:24 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #172 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat

In 1995, Bush vetoed a bill that would have created the Texas Food Security Council to study hunger in Texas and help local officials solve their hunger problems. this in a state where 13% of the people are food insecure (go without on a monthly basis) and where more than one million go hungry each day.

What does Bush say about hunger in Texas? "No children are going to go hungry in this state," GW BUSH, Dec. 18, 1999 FT Worth Star-Telegram

Bush has never set foot in a Texas food pantry.

I was thirsty and you gave me no drink

A third of a million Texans living in the forgotten colonias have no clean water to drink. This has led to disease and infant death rates more akin to the third world than a modern compassionate state.

Bush has never set foot in a colonia.

Sick

One in four Texans has no health care. One in Four. It is the worst record of all states. People die because of this lack.

and in Prison and you visited me not Though he has killed more men than any other Bush has never stepped foot in a Texas prison. Bush says he thouroughly reviews all death row cases--yet document obtained through the FOIA reveal that Bush spent less than five minutes in examining the cases of the men he killed. Even sleeping defense lawyers were satisfactory to George W Bush.

Bush is a monster. 

Davis X. Machina - 10:27 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #173 of 264
Sen. Gene McCarthy on moderate Republicans, "They’re the ones who when seeing a man drowning fifteen feet off shore will toss him a ten foot rope, and say that they have gone more than half way."

Thank you, Martin.

You will judge them by their fruits. 

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 11:06 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #174 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

I just got this via email from a list I'm on. It's from a site about urban legends. Evidently some of Junior's more ardent supporters in the Religious Right are so desperate to believe he's a "godly" man that'll they will make up stories about him:

GW Bush: Our Soul-Saving President

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Patrick Bishop - 11:14 pm PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #175 of 264
"Mejor los indios" -- Blood Meridian

Anybody who thinks Swadesh's excerpt represents the editorial position of The American Spectator may now line up for bridge auctions and swampland sales.

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Mrs. Parker - 12:05 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #176 of 264

That makes more sense. An easy mistake to make, though, and I've made it myself in the past. 

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P Glass - 01:47 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #177 of 264
Where I live, illegal residents are not called 'presidents', they are called 'squatters'.

I was listening to BBC just now and heard a doctor from Swaziland being interviewed on the consequences of the Bush gag order on American NGO health clinics there.

In Swaziland the numbers of reported incest cases of very young daughters who have become pregnant by their fathers has risen 50% over the last 2 years. The dramatic rise is due to girls' feeling empowered to report the incest..a 11-12 year old child has someplace to go for help. Swazi fathers claim it is their right and custom, sanctioned by the Bible. I forget the Biblical quote they rely on. Anyway- many of the present NGO clinics will close. 

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 02:08 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #178 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

This is an editorial from Alan Dershowitz in the Los Angeles Times last week:

Bush Defies Constitution

So much for separation of church and state ... 

SAG- 02:56 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #179 of 264
sag

Naow ...them ol' ROMANS useta play GAMES wif THEIR PEOPLE too, jus' lak these poltishuns, amen, are a PLAYIN' games wif us... ...and wen some guy WON in them games...amen, they'd put a WREATH made outa this stuff LAUREL-- they picked hit rat off'n a tree...a LAUREL tree-- an' they put hit 'roun his head...lak a CROWN, amen.... Thet's why wen they CROOCIFIED JESUS, amen, they put thet CROWN o' THORNS on his head? amen... 'cuz they wuz a makin' FUN of 'im an' they wuz a tellin' HIM... in their own PEEKOOLYAR WAY..."YUH LOST boy, and here's YORE crown, amen, oney hit hain't a LAUREL crown O' VICKTREE wif all them froots 'n berries, amen... this here's a crown o' thorns... ...and we's a gonna STICK IT TO YUH..." jus' lak them guyz in WASHTUN'S A DOIN', amen an' halleluiah.... ...They wuz MEEN uns back then... amen an' halleluiah, jus' lak there's MEEN uns rat naow...amen.... An' it seems lak this month was named RIGHT, amen an' halleluiah, naow don't hit?...amen, 'cuz we got THESE TWO HEADED TWO FACED guys of BOTH plitical partries up thar in WASHTUN, a lookin' in th' PAST and a tryin' to make hit our FUTURE, an' a tellin' us WE LOST...so's 'MEMBER THIS--wen these guys thet are a sayin' they's so RELIJUS start a PREACHIN' tuh YEW, amen, and a tellin' YEW thet YEW is JEESUS-LIKE... they's really a sayin' "YUH LOST BOY...AN' HERE'S YORE CROWN O' THORNS... 'cuz we's a STICKIN' IT TO YUH...." _____________________

...Amen an' halleluiah... ...The Rev.

http://www.advancenet.net~netsuke

http://www.iei.net/~sag/

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J Swadesh - 07:18 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #180 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Michelle

I don’t understand why they keep evoking him. They are saying, “Yes, I know I am going to hell.” when they claim that they believe in Jesus. Does it make any sense to someone else?

As George W. Bush's life illustrates.

Marty

For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat

I just got this via email from a list I'm on. It's from a site about urban legends. Evidently some of Junior's more ardent supporters in the Religious Right are so desperate to believe he's a "godly" man that'll they will make up stories about him

The Ackerman article actually came from The American Prospect, not The American Spectator.

Right you are!

My deepest apologies.

Thanks for the correction, Patrick. 

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Brian Sponsler - 08:30 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #181 of 264

American Prospect, American Spectator - kind of like confusing The Nation with The National Review, but kind of blows your theory that the conservatives are turning on George, though, doesn't it, Swadesh? Are all your theories supported by such in-depth and well-understood research?

As for the sorry condition of the colonias legitimate criticism can certainly be leveled at Bush for not elevating the issues there. However, the rapid growth of those colonias has been a direct and anticipated result of the North American Free Trade Agreement - which Gore deserves much "credit" for - by humiliating Ross Perot, he was able to break off the 50 or so Democratic votes it took to pass it in the House. 

Monty G. - 08:38 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #182 of 264
Die konservative Tagesordnung wird jederfalls Ihre abscheulich Kehlen herunter für Ihr eigenes gutes vollstopfen.

but kind of blows your theory that the conservatives are turning on George, though, doesn't it, Swadesh?

Not really. I had a an article passed onto me yest from the American Spectacle that was very very surprising. 

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Martin Heldt - 08:47 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #183 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

However, the rapid growth of those colonias has been a direct and anticipated result of the North American Free Trade Agreement

Colonias are a Texas problem because ONLY Texas lets landowners create their own little subdivisions with UNREGULATED buildings,NO streets, NO sanitation, NO water lines, No electric Lines....SQUAT.

Colonias are a Texas problem, and a Texas Problem that doubled under Bush's lax gaze. 

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Brian Sponsler - 08:55 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #184 of 264

My subscription to the Spectator expired years ago. What article are you talking about?

Martin - do you know what the proportion of maquiladoras were prior to NAFTA? I'm guessing that there will probably be a correlation.

This Public Citizen report <http://www.citizen.org/pctrade/nafta/reports/enviro96.htm> is old ('96), but does make it clear how anticipated these problems were. It is also hardly surprising that the problem has grown "under Bush", since nearly the entire 7 year life of NAFTA has been during Bush's administration. How many colonias predate NAFTA after all?

btw, since you live in Clinton, I'm guessing you worked for the CNW. Did that myself from '77 to '82. 

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kittey morgan - 09:01 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #185 of 264

<http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/01/28/News/News.20332.html> Even in Israel! 

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winston barclay - 09:01 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #186 of 264
I could do better if I tried. Really.

"God's eternal plan itself depended upon the application of the death penalty." Ironic, isn't it. In that formula, Eternal Life required humans to torture the incarnation to death. The formula also required Judas' betrayal. Let's hear it for executions and betrayals. What next? God's plan required the Supreme Court to illegally install W so that the prophesies of Revelation can be fulfilled? 

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Brian Sponsler - 09:14 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #187 of 264

I noted it, not to encourage betrayals or executions, but to counter the idea that "if Jesus were here" he would "fighting the death penalty", an idea which was voiced here.

Well, Christ was here, and He didn't fight the death penalty - on the contrary, He submitted to it. I think that speculation about what Christ "would do" if He were here now is likely just as inaccurate as the speculation was 2000 years ago.

We are supposed to work for Justice, and Christian orthodoxy has supported capital punishment as compatiable with the civil administration of justice for its entire history, including now, even though John Paul urges that its application be refrained from at this time. 

winston barclay - 09:19 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #188 of 264
I could do better if I tried. Really.

"I think that speculation about what Christ "would do" if He were here now is likly just as inaccurate as the speculation was 2000 years ago. " I agree. Which is why those WWJD? t-shirts are so annoying. 

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Brian Sponsler - 09:20 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #189 of 264

Well - we agree. Maybe that's a first. 

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winston barclay - 09:35 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #190 of 264
I could do better if I tried. Really.

No it's not. 

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Elaine Supkis - 11:01 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #191 of 264
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Jesus said, "Don't turn the other cheek, kill!"

He said to Peter, "Draw your sword and start swinging, kill".

He said, "Suffer the children to come unto me and kill them".

Yes, the new improved right wing Jesus. 

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Mello1- 11:08 am PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #192 of 264
DAY 11 of the Illegitimate Occupation of the White House -- America held hostage.

Justifying murder in the name of Jesus. You gotta luv them! 

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J Swadesh - 12:25 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #193 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Sponsler

Are all your theories supported by such in-depth and well-understood research?

Speaking of well-researched, when are you going to provide a single fact?

Well, Christ was here, and He didn't fight the death penalty - on the contrary, He submitted to it.

Submitting to the death penalty because God has required it to save the world is a tad different than submitting to it because the governor didn't care if you're attorney was drunk in court and you don't have a choice.

Christian orthodoxy has supported capital punishment as compatiable with the civil administration of justice for its entire history, including now, even though John Paul urges that its application be refrained from at this time.

Mello1

Justifying murder in the name of Jesus. You gotta luv them!

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Brian Sponsler - 01:05 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #194 of 264

You are confused about what defines Catholic orthodoxy, Swadesh. But why do you insist on overlooking 1900 years of historical fact and willfully misreading The Gospel of Life to fit your preferred, but inaccurate, "other words"? Given that your intent here is to declare Bush a heretic, you should at least show an understanding of orthodoxy.

You would certainly be offended if Bush sought to align government policy with any declaration of faith or the latest papal pronouncements anyway, so you should use another stick to do your beating. 

k l epperly - 01:08 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #195 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

The Swadesh tag-lin in this thread is most ironic, and amusing. Supposedly no one is allowed to identify himself as a Christian without Swadesh's prior permission.

He has long set himself up as an arbiter of who is Christian and who isn't, yet lacks the courage to state his own convictions in public. 

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Mrs. Parker - 02:04 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #196 of 264

Swadesh's tag line is exceeding clever in a way obviously not understood by wingnuts. It has nothing to do with Swadesh giving "permission" for posters to admit Christianity. Doh. 

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Jane Aisling - 02:17 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #197 of 264
"No social advance rolls in on the wheels of inevitability. Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals."Dr. MLK, Jr.

J's tagline reminds of the day when I was trying to buy a used car, and was told to leave because I tried to negotiate the price of a used car. Yes. The horror.

Upon returning home, I received a phone call from the manager who threw me out, pretending to be someone else. I recognized his voice, and wanted to see what other shenanagins he'd pull before my pizza was finished baking.

Sure enough, he pulled the "But, I'm a Christian, I wouldn't lie to you!"

That was it. I said goodbye. I'm mighty suspicious of people who need to profess their faith to me in order to sell a car.

When you need to tell someone you're a Christian in this setting, then sure enough, you're doing it to manipulate, and it's the last card you have to use. 

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Verwirrung- 02:18 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #198 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

If the wingnuts were capable of grasping subtlety, we wouldn't have a death penalty. 

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Martin Heldt - 02:18 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #199 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

Well, Christ was here, and He didn't fight the death penalty - on the contrary, He submitted to it.

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Patrick Bishop - 02:22 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #200 of 264
"Mejor los indios" -- Blood Meridian

Thanks for the correction, Patrick.

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kittey morgan - 04:11 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #201 of 264

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect. The CC/RW have elected the above into the WH.....A MYTH, A FAKE, A CARNIVAL BARKER....What a joke.....ON themselves no less. hahahahahaha 

Monty G. - 04:17 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #202 of 264
Die konservative Tagesordnung wird jederfalls Ihre abscheulich Kehlen herunter für Ihr eigenes gutes vollstopfen.

Bean Sponsler;

Well, Christ was here, and He didn't fight the death penalty

And he also didn't fight abortion and homosexuality (and not for lack of it happening in the mideast cities obviously). In fact He didn't even mention it , so it seems to me you and your radicial right reactionaires are, as usual, on at best shaky logic. 

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paul lukasiak - 05:07 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #203 of 264
You've got a heritage of defending German patriots like Karl Donitz, Ernst Rommel, & Adolf Hitler...We've got to stand up, or we'll be taught these people were giving their lives and their honor to some perverted agenda--Johann Askroftt

Christian orthodoxy has supported capital punishment as compatiable with the civil administration of justice for its entire history,

nowadays "christian orthodoxy" supports televangelism.

I've often wondered how someone whose only exposure to Christianity was the Gospels themselves if they were confronted with what passes today for "orthodox christianity".

Actually, i know how the person would react...they would be completely confused by people calling themselves "christians" who are clearly NOT followers of christ. 

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J Swadesh - 05:11 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #204 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

You are confused about what defines Catholic orthodoxy, Swadesh.

Mrs. Parker

Swadesh's tag line is exceeding clever in a way obviously not understood by wingnuts.

(BTW, I can claim no cleverness w.r.t. the tagline. I heard it from a preacher man).

Jane

I'm mighty suspicious of people who need to profess their faith to me in order to sell a car.

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J Swadesh - 05:12 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #205 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Martin

There is a huge difference in being on the receiving end of the death penalty and fighting the death penalty. That difference is clear in John 8:7 when he stopped an execution from taking place.

Why is it so difficult for right-wingers to comprehend that Jesus was the first (or at least most prominent) recorded case of an unjust execution? That Paul was a striking example of an unjustly imprisoned man? That Lazarus the beggar was an example of a man unfairly tormented by poverty? That a major point of the gospel stories is to move people to compassion for others-- and that Bush's contempt for the poor, the imprisoned, the condemned makes it blindingly evident that he has not absorbed the lessons of the gospels?

Patrick

No problem [correcting source], Joel. ... I decided you'd rather know than continue thinking that E. Emmett Tyrrell had suddenly abandoned the Dark Side.

But in joining into this deeply dishonest Supreme Court appointment of a president, Bush&Co. have reached new depths. No longer content to corrupt the nation with money, they are reduced to outright tyranny. 

Brian Sponsler - 05:13 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #206 of 264

I debated with myself whether to point out that the Ackerman article wasn't from the Spectator since I knew, as night follows day, that Sponsler would start crowing about the error...

Sure - who cares about the accuracy of someone you agree with? Typical liberal stunt. Of course, anyone who's read the American Spectator knew that J's assertion was bullshit - as I pointed out.

Christ does talk a lot about a spiritual death penalty - seperating wheat from tarres (throwing the weeds into the unquenchable fire), seperating the sheep from the goats, etc. But no discussion amongst ourselves changes the historical fact that Christianity has always held the death penalty to be an acceptable exercise of civic power under certain circumstances. You may believe that this orthodoxy has been incorrect, but that doesn't change the facts. 

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J Swadesh - 05:16 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #207 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Paul

"christian orthodoxy" has also supported all sorts of things, like the crusades, the inquisition, witch hunts, and the active supression of non-religious orthodoxy. nowadays "christian orthodoxy" supports televangelism.

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Martin Heldt - 05:21 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #208 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

Brian,

I knew a man with a name quite close to yours who hired out with me in 77 (only two letters different in the last name.)

Do you know the town where superman grew up? 

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Brian Sponsler - 05:24 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #209 of 264

Somewhere in Kansas, I think. I worked Maintenance of Way - track laying crew in '77. 

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Martin Heldt - 05:24 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #210 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

With the phony "Equal Protection" arguments offered by the Supreme Court in their coup d'etat to install Bush, it should be a cinch to shame them on the grossly unequal protection applied to Death Row.

But I fear that they have no shame. 

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Brian Sponsler - 05:25 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #211 of 264

Somewhere in Kansas, I think. I worked Maintenance of Way - track laying crew in '77. 

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Martin Heldt - 05:30 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #212 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

Brian,

The man who played Superman in the old tv series grew up just a few miles from me and the fellow I mentioned. The town was Woolstock, Iowa.

The dates and the name made me curious. 

John Stencel - 05:54 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #213 of 264
"On the surface, selling arms to a country that sponsors terrorism, of course, clearly, you'd have to argue it's wrong, but it's the exception sometimes that proves the rule." - George Bush

And when he was crucified, Christ asked his Father to forgive them. Why would they need to be forgiven?

Luke 6,46-49: "Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you? [47] Every one who comes to me and hears my words and does them, I will show you what he is like: [48] he is like a man building a house, who dug deep, and laid the foundation upon rock; and when a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it had been well built. [49] But he who hears and does not do them is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation; against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great." 

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BobbieOK- 06:27 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #214 of 264
Will we ever make it back to Kansas, Toto?--Dorothy in the Wizard of Florida

A couple of thoughts....

Didn't aWol declare Jan 21 a "National Day of Prayer and THANKSGIVING" ? Thanksgiving?????? for what????

Regarding the story posted somewhere that aWol "led a person to Christ" at some s-election "win" celebration dinner....watch out for the use of this story in Religious Right circles. There's already a mood out in many churches that he is "the annointed one of God." This was the line during the campaign...."put true man of God in the White House." Why do we need any more elections???? God reigns through his annointed one; next we need the story of a "healing through the laying on of hands."

How can you question the president? and his appointees? do you dare to question God and His will????? 

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J Swadesh - 06:39 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #215 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Bobbie

Didn't aWol declare Jan 21 a "National Day of Prayer and THANKSGIVING" ? Thanksgiving?????? for what????

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KR Brennan - 07:34 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #216 of 264
Jan 6th, 2001, Democracy's last hope fell short by 1 Senator's vote

Bobbie,

I think they are trying to tell you about those false prophets. That sounds a lot more like Bush.

And Thanksgiving, wasn't that a couple of weeks after he stole the Election. Maybe he was praying that no-one would remember that. 

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BobbieOK- 07:49 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #217 of 264
Will we ever make it back to Kansas, Toto?--Dorothy in the Wizard of Florida

I think "thanksgiving" was the Republican/Far Right message = "let the nation give thanks to God that we now have a man of God in the White House" and also that the "evil, satanic Democrats are out."

Also, judging by Religious Right sermons here in the heartland of the Religious Right, the "day of prayer" was to call the nation to join in prayer that the "man of God" nominated for attorney general would be confirmed, despite the machinations of "all those liberals/secular humanists who hate and fear true Bible-believing, God-fearing, born-again Christians" and who have worked so hard the last 8 years to destroy them.

You all really need to watch some 700 club, CBN, and TBN and get some insight into "reality" according to the Religious Right. 

J Swadesh - 08:16 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #218 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

During the Civil War, southern Christians argued that the Bible favored slavery, while northern Christians argued that it favored abolition. In the wake of the Civil War, it was agreed by all except the most hardened confederates that slavery was a wrong. Even today, African Americans are angered by confederate shows. Extremist groups such as Stormfront also show a strong affinity for confederate regalia.

Would Jesus, even if he had been a southerner, celebrate the confederacy?

George Bush has ties to neoConfederate groups, and two of his appointees so far have neoConfederate leanings as well. Is this an emulation of Jesus? 

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debgill- 08:17 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #219 of 264

The Republicans always seemed to find fault with the Clintons' church-going. Somehow the Clintons never really worshipped correctly. I could never understand this. It wasn't as though the Clintons screamed devil-worship during the services (if they had, I am sure we would have heard about it).

Now the Bushes are in and they go to church, therefore they are "good Christians".

What is the difference?

Oh, yes, they are Republicans. 

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BobbieOK- 08:20 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #220 of 264
Will we ever make it back to Kansas, Toto?--Dorothy in the Wizard of Florida

Some time after the se-lection, I heard that the word was out....Gore "is" 1) an idol worshipper and/or 2) a Buddhist. 

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KR Brennan - 08:29 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #221 of 264
Jan 6th, 2001, Democracy's last hope fell short by 1 Senator's vote

I have a question for all of you. I am asking this as someone who doesn't know the answer, I'm not baiting anyone.

THe term Idol worshipper has always confused me. I know it's mentioned in the Bible, along with some type of Golden idol. Now a question:

Is the statue of the Madonna or those huge Crosses with Jesus on them considered an idol? IN other words, is the physical statue considered an idol? Or is this considered an Icon, which has a different meaning, I guess. 

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Patrick Bishop - 08:49 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #222 of 264
"Mejor los indios" -- Blood Meridian

With the phony "Equal Protection" arguments offered by the Supreme Court in their coup d'etat to install Bush, it should be a cinch to shame them on the grossly unequal protection applied to Death Row.

It'll be business as usual for any hapless death row supplicant who looks for help from this shameless crew. 

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Julie St. John - 09:00 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #223 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Calling someone an idol worshipper is a way to denigrate them and their beliefs; it suggests that while you're worshipping the one true god, they're merely praying to a statue (or whatever other form the idol might take). 

John Stencel - 09:00 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #224 of 264
"On the surface, selling arms to a country that sponsors terrorism, of course, clearly, you'd have to argue it's wrong, but it's the exception sometimes that proves the rule." - George Bush

KR,

I have heard of some Christian sects that do not have crosses in their churches, for that reason. Plus, they view the cross as the instrument of Christ's torture and believe it to be sacreligious to wear one. 

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J Swadesh - 10:15 pm PST - Jan 28, 2001  - #225 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

KRBrennan

Is the statue of the Madonna or those huge Crosses with Jesus on them considered an idol? IN other words, is the physical statue considered an idol? Or is this considered an Icon, which has a different meaning, I guess.

Patrick

Gore v. Bush, according to these folks, has no precedential value and the only person who can take advantage of it is George W. Bush.

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KR Brennan - 04:38 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #226 of 264
Jan 6th, 2001, Democracy's last hope fell short by 1 Senator's vote

Thank all of you for the clarification 

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Tina Kramer - 05:22 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #227 of 264
Put Marvin Miller in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

When I was in college, one of my friends who had become a born-again Christian told me about smashing a very expensive statue of Buddha that her parents had brought back from China so that they would not "worship false idols".

Somehow she couldn't figure out why they were upset.

Jim Wallis of SOJOURNERS is on C-SPAN's WASHINGTON JOURNAL now talking about faith-based programs. So far, he seems to be giving it somewhat qualified support. 

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David Campo - 06:13 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #228 of 264
"Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment."--Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001 -Mr. Subliminable

Of course, there are Christians and then there "Christians". I don't pretend to be an expert, but despite growing up a nothing/Unitarian/Jew, I was always under the impression that the goal of Christains was to act "Christ-like". This would be a GOOD thing, since Christ was sort of a hippie...you know...a peaceloving good person.

However, I found out later in life that a large percentage of "Christians" believe all kinds of unbelieveable shit. They believe they're better than all others. They use the "Jesus Insurance Policy" as a means of believing they'll go to heaven no matter what they've done in life, as long as they say I'm sorry and accept Jesus at some point along the way.

What a load of total crap! You either are or you aren't a good person. You can't have it both ways. How many times can a person be reborn?

Bush is just a stupid bastard. He ain't Christ-like. 

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David Campo - 06:14 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #229 of 264
"Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment."--Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001 -Mr. Subliminable

Tina, it would seem a large percentage of Christians are completely brain-dead when it comes to dealing with reality.

Faith-based government programs are a violation of the Constitution IMO. 

Martin Heldt - 06:32 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #230 of 264
www.lp.org - a simple URL for simpletons

Faith-based government programs are a violation of the Constitution IMO

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kittey morgan - 06:52 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #231 of 264

All the RW/CC elected was a "False Prophet" "False Christ"....They got nothing but a carney barker.....Nothing more, nothing less. 

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kittey morgan - 07:00 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #232 of 264

All links have been put in the LINKS THREAD. 

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paul lukasiak - 08:32 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #233 of 264
You've got a heritage of defending German patriots like Karl Donitz, Ernst Rommel, & Adolf Hitler...We've got to stand up, or we'll be taught these people were giving their lives and their honor to some perverted agenda--Johann Askroftt

I don't think that, in theory, faith-based programs per se should be considered unconstitutional. The test needs to be whether or not services are available to anyone, whether a recipient of services is encouraged or required to submit to some form of proselytizing, and whether they are complaint with all regulations to which non-faith based providers are.

For instance, i have no problem with providing funding for a soup kitchen run in the basement of a catholic church, run by that church---BUT you cannot have a prayer before the meal. 

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J Swadesh - 08:35 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #234 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Soup kitchens without coerced prayer exist all over the place. Bush wants soup kitchens where prayer is a condition of eating.

Surely Jesus would not require such a thing. 

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Tina Kramer - 08:36 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #235 of 264
Put Marvin Miller in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

What does everyone think about the Bushes attending a majority black Methodist church in Washington? Is this sincere -- I mean, is the church they really wanted to attend? Or is it more symbolic? 

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paul lukasiak - 08:39 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #236 of 264
You've got a heritage of defending German patriots like Karl Donitz, Ernst Rommel, & Adolf Hitler...We've got to stand up, or we'll be taught these people were giving their lives and their honor to some perverted agenda--Johann Askroftt

Tina...

when shrub goes to a black church, its not symbolism, its tokenism. 

spor- 08:51 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #237 of 264
Tyrannodeus rex

paul lukasiak - #233

I don't think that, in theory, faith-based programs per se should be considered unconstitutional. The test needs to be whether or not services are available to anyone, whether a recipient of services is encouraged or required to submit to some form of proselytizing, and whether they are complaint with all regulations to which non-faith based providers are.

These organizations are exempt from many regulations, such as non-discrimination in hiring.

For instance, i have no problem with providing funding for a soup kitchen run in the basement of a catholic church, run by that church---BUT you cannot have a prayer before the meal.

I have a big problem with stuff like this. These sorts of services are often referred to as "outreach ministries". They're a part of the religious duties of adherants to the various religions. Using tax dollars to fund these ministries is wrong!!

Now, of course, someone will say "you'd rather see people starve than have tax money go to religious organizations". To which I'd say, No, I want people fed, even by tax money, but not in the guise of religion.

Plus, every dollar that comes in to a religious group that gets spent on "services" is a dollar that is freed up to spend on incense or statuary or other religious items. Maybe even to pay the priest, minister, rabbi or iman. 

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KR Brennan - 09:35 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #238 of 264
Jan 6th, 2001, Democracy's last hope fell short by 1 Senator's vote

Tina and Paul,

The article said that Bush was looking for a church to attend regularly. He went to this one because someone recommended. (Of course it does make a good Photo Op, what with Daddie and Mommie and Wife). I also think that he is trying to use this as a way to show everyone "See, I'm not a bigot (like my AG)". How he could show his face is beyond me, but then I'm not a politician. 

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D. Case - 10:07 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #239 of 264
When smashing monuments, save the pedestals--they always come in handy. -Stanislaw J. Lec

David Campo:

growing up a nothing/Unitarian/Jew, I was always under the impression that the goal of Christains was to act "Christ-like"

Christian agitators have long insisted that "the media" does not understand religious life and portrays it unfairly. (Of course they also claim that 85% of Americans are Christian, so I've always suspected they're leaving out "Jew-controlled" for obvious reasons ). And I agree, with equivocation and minus the conspiracy crap. I think this has played into the hands of the fundies, because the media icon for Religion is a group being told what to do by a holy man. So the so-called rise of fundamentalism can be termed "an increase in religious feeling", and Ralph Reed and Jerry Falwell, who at best represent less than 1 in 5 members of their branch of faith, can hog all the airtime. 

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Robert Kent - 10:24 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #240 of 264
Child on White House tour: "Mommy, who is that strange man wandering the halls?" Her mother: "He thinks he's our President."

Perhaps we can look forward to more of the following...

<http://www.theonion.com/onion3216/lutheranloves.html> 

Tony Karp - 10:25 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #241 of 264
In the end, GW Bush was a uniter -- He united his enemies

Matters not what you folks think, it's here.

CNN:

Bush signs order opening 'faith-based' charity office for business

After devoting his first week in office to education reform, President Bush opened his second week by concentrating on more controversial issues, including his proposals to allow religious groups to receive federal funding for the provision of vital life and social services to the needy.

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Marie Cook - 11:14 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #242 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Bush Sets Up Faith-Based Office at White House

Monday, January 29, 2001

<http://news.lycos.com/headlines/Politics/article.asp?docid=RTPOLITICS-BUSH-FAITH-DC&date=20010129>

This is one of the worst things I can think of happening to our government. Everyone should begin protesting this immediately. It cannot be constitutional to use taxmoney to set up his friends in an office to deal with religious organizations.

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spor- 11:15 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #243 of 264
Tyrannodeus rex

Constitution? We don't need no steeeenking Constitution. 

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Organic2000- 11:26 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #244 of 264
"Democracy does not need the church or the clergy. The fruits of Christianity in both clergy and laity, are superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- President John Adams, 1784.

Who determines what religous bodies get the booty. Is Jim Bakker gonna get some, money that is. Is Jimmy Swaggart(Jerry Lee's cousin) gonna get some. How much is Pat Robinson gonna get? How much is Jerry Fallwell gonna get, money that is you know nobody would give him any of the good stuff. 

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kittey morgan - 11:34 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #245 of 264

The shit is going to get deeper and deeper and deeper...I dread what is coming next. Told my children to head for Ireland..as soon as possible. Get the hell out of here. They have friends there...and the friends aren't happy with what is going on in America, neither is IRELAND!!!!!! ANother country heard from. 

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John Stencel - 11:34 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #246 of 264
"On the surface, selling arms to a country that sponsors terrorism, of course, clearly, you'd have to argue it's wrong, but it's the exception sometimes that proves the rule." - George Bush

I am an ordained minister. Wiccan/Buddhist/Christian philosophy. Maybe I can apply for some of that faith-based charity moolah. I give to the homeless. If the gubmint would give me more money, I could give more money to the homeless. Then, when they deny me based on my religious views, I can sue them. 

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TMPASCA- 11:35 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #247 of 264
It's their party, they'll cheat if they want to.

Bush's plan is nothing new... The government in a symbiotic power/money-sharing alliance with the Church, where repressive policies were legitimized by a corrupt clergy. It was very successful for hundreds of years in Europe. It was called THE MIDDLE AGES!!!!!

"Whom would Jesus vote for?" 

kittey morgan - 11:37 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #248 of 264

Hopefully NOT BUSH 

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Jo Ann Simon - 11:40 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #249 of 264

Not only is this act unconstitutional, can you imagine the bureacratic boondoggle it will be to oversee and enforce? Some facts about how voters split in this past election:

U.S. Voters Religiously Polarized By RICHARD N. OSTLING AP Religion Writer

WASHINGTON (AP)--The political polarization of Americans on the basis of religion was reinforced during the tight Bush-Gore election, a team of political scientists said Thursday.

A post-election poll of adult voters showed that more than ever, the Republican religious coalition consisted of solid majorities of weekly churchgoers among white Protestants, white Roman Catholics and Mormons.

The heaviest Democratic religious categories were, in order: black Protestants, Jews and other non-Christians, Hispanic Catholics, Hispanic Protestants, people who consider themselves completely secular, and Catholics who don't attend Mass each week.

Lead investigator John C. Green of the University of Akron said the most dramatic shift from a comparable 1996 poll occurred among regularly worshipping white Evangelicals. Excluding Ross Perot voters, they gave Bob Dole 70 percent support in 1996 but 84 percent to George W. Bush in November. The other religious bloc alignments were also strengthened over 1996, but less dramatically.

The 2000 report excluded third-party voters.

``I'm not sure our society is deeply divided,'' Green told a news conference. Americans ``disagree with their neighbors. They don't hate them.''

He said there was no hint of anti-Semitism over the candidacy of Joseph Lieberman for vice president, for instance.

White Catholics, a closely watched swing voting bloc, showed a clear internal split, with 57 percent of weekly worshippers who voted backing Bush and 59 percent among the smaller group of less active Catholics who voted favoring Gore.

Over-all, three-fourths of the Bush vote came from all types of weekly white churchgoers plus a slim majority of less observant white Protestants. Two-thirds of the Gore vote came from the religious minority groups, secular Americans and white Catholics who don't attend regularly. 

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kittey morgan - 11:44 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #250 of 264

"Fools Rush In, Where Wise Men Fear To Tread." 

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Organic2000- 11:44 am PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #251 of 264
"Democracy does not need the church or the clergy. The fruits of Christianity in both clergy and laity, are superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- President John Adams, 1784.

Jesus wouldn't vote, he wouldn't have time. He would be too busy chasing Republicans out of the Temples. 

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kittey morgan - 02:05 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #252 of 264

< CBS Evening News for February 19, 1984

1984.02.19 TV / MKTING. RELIGION 5:53:30-5:57:10 . . . . . Sunday . . . . . CBS (S) Rpt. introd. REPORTER: Morton Dean

(NYC) Inc. use of TV to mkt. religion examined; films shown courtesy Athletes in Action org. [Athletes in Action creator David HANNAH - notes Christians study mkting. in college; wants to mkt. Jesus Christ.] Episcopal, Mormon commercials shown. [Rev. Ellwood KEISER - cites need for audience.] Keiser's past role in "Insight" & current status noted; scenes shown courtesy Paulist prods. [KEISER - believes TV is effective.] Success of CBN, religious channel, noted. [CBN creator Pat ROBERTSON - feels drama is extension of church.] REPORTER: Sam Ford "This is why I keep OLD NEWS on my bookmarks I never know when I will need it." 

kittey morgan - 02:09 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #253 of 264

<NBC Evening News for March 6, 1984

1984.03.06 SCHOOL PRAYER / REAGAN CMPGN., SEN. DEBATE 5:30:10-5:34:00 . . . . . Tuesday . . . . . NBC (S) Rpt. introd. REPORTER: Tom Brokaw

(Columbus, OH) Pres. Reagan's appearance before Ntl. Assn. of Evangelicals featured; films shown. [REAGAN - quotes pledge of allegiance.] His reference to USSR as "evil empire" to same conv. last yr. recalled. [REAGAN - will pray for USSR ldrs.] Pres.'s courting of religious groups in bid for blue collar ethnic votes described; his support for tuition tax credits, naming of amb. to Vatican & anti-abortion stance mentioned. [Baptist Joint Cmte. on Public Affairs spn. Dr. Chas. ADAMS - feels Reagan's religious rhetoric is ploy; resents Pres. identifying his position with God.] [Jerry FALWELL - claims Ams. expect their Pres. to be spiritual.] Reagan's immediate schedule for appearances before other religious groups & possible emotionalism of issue in 1984 cmpgn. due to both Gary Hart & Walter Mondale opposing prayer in schools noted. REPORTER: Chris Wallace

(S) Rpt. introd. REPORTER: Tom Brokaw

(DC) Opening of Sen. debate on school prayer noted; Sen. John Danforth, also an Episcopal priest, said urging colleagues to ease up on rhetoric. [DANFORTH - thinks debate is on Constitution, not God.] Lobbying efforts of pro-prayer forces & TV preachers noted; scenes from "The 700 Club" with Pat Robertson shown courtesy Christian Bdcsting. Network (CBN). No. pro-prayer calls recd. daily by Sen. Lloyd Bentsen mentioned. [Sen. Jeff BINGAMAN - criticizes Repb. role in issue.] REPORTER: John Dancy

(S) Sen. Howard Baker's reaction to prayer supporters' threat to filibuster until June noted. REPORTER: Tom Brokaw

Last modified: July 19, 1994

[ TV News Archive Homepage | About the Archive | Evening News Abstracts | Special Reports | Specialized Collections | Videotape Orders | Search the Archive | Sample Evening News Abstracts | Facility Tour | Archive Staff | Links | Vanderbilt University ] 

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kittey morgan - 02:12 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #254 of 264

Anyone know how to do backup? I do not.... Tons' of info here that everyone has forgotten about. Need to do backup. 

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kittey morgan - 02:15 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #255 of 264

<CBS Evening News for January 27, 1978

1978.01.27 EVANGELICAL BROADCASTING 5:52:30-5:57:00 . . . . . Friday . . . . . CBS (S) Jesus Christ's commandment to disciples to spread his teachings into all world, according to Gospels of St. Matthew & St. Mark, quoted. Rpt. on ease with which modern mins. find it's possible & lucrative to carry out this commandment. REPORTER: Walter Cronkite

(DC) Rpt. on expansion of broadcast religion. Evangelist Robt. Schuller's participation in Hubert Humphrey's funeral noted; film shown. [SCHULLER - talks about Humphrey.] TV religious broadcasts mentioned incl. Schuller' s "Hour of Power", Pat Robertson's "700 Club" which originates from Virginia Beach, VA, "High Adventure" which has guests like Pat Boone, Jerry Falwell's "The Old-Time Gospel Hour" which originates from Lynchburg, VA, & "The Criswell Bible Inst." [Ntl. Religious Broadcasters exec. secy. Dr. Ben ARMSTRONG - cites degree of growth in radio & TV stations.] Efforts of advertisers & religious suppliers to capitalize on this growth detailed. Success of Falwell's efforts & source of income for TV show noted. [FALWELL - describes how donation system works.] SEC charges against Falwell's church, in bond sales case, & fed. judge's decision that no fraud was intended rptd. [FALWELL - says evangelical broadcast ministry gets bad name from cases like Pallottine Fathers & Elmer Gantry; but thinks religious broadcasting has brought more attn. in US to spiritual interest & desires.] REPORTER: Roger Mudd

Last modified: June 2, 1995

There is tons more.... 

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Robert Posey - 02:21 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #256 of 264
Re-Elect Gore in 2004

From what I hear on TV, God and his son were to busy helping the Raven Win the Super Bowl, and setting the Giants up to look really, really bad. I heard it straight from the Raven Players' mouths, and the Giant players were too scared to even blame God for helping the other team, or maybe they didn't know since its clear God Favors the Ravens. 

David Campo - 05:22 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #257 of 264
"Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment."--Interview with the New York Times, Jan. 14, 2001 -Mr. Subliminable

Hey, god always favors the winners. 

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J Swadesh - 08:25 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #258 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

By the way, Eric, a theological point in support of your query. In Titus 1, the writer says “They [Cretans] claim to know God, but by their actions, they deny Him”. The word translated claim is the same word that is generally translated "believe". So, the passage could be rendered, "They claim to believe God, but by their actions, they deny Him".

Which is precisely what we have been saying about George aWol Bush. Perfectly scripturally sound to do so. 

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ed scarbrough - 09:09 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #259 of 264
His Fraudulencey recapitulates the Plutocracy

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Is there any question at which altar Dubya kneels? 

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KR Brennan - 09:23 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #260 of 264
Jan 6th, 2001, Democracy's last hope fell short by 1 Senator's vote

Which one is Cheney standing in front of? 

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Davis X. Machina - 09:30 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001  - #261 of 264
Sen. Gene McCarthy on moderate Republicans, "They’re the ones who when seeing a man drowning fifteen feet off shore will toss him a ten foot rope, and say that they have gone more than half way."

Cheney, for better or for worse, isn't good enough of a faker to be a hypocrite. He's just plain rotten all the way down, and doesn't care who knows it. 

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(Deleted message originally posted by kittey morgan on 10:40 pm PST - Jan 29, 2001)

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hoony- 12:01 am PST - Jan 30, 2001  - #263 of 264
(Ted Gray) Don't blame me, I wrote in Richard Mellon Scaiffe

Stroke of the pen, law of the land. Pretty cool. 

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Verwirrung- 07:00 am PST - Jan 30, 2001  - #264 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

So, in recognition of the new administration, has anybody started manufacturing toilet paper with Constitutional articles printed on it?